Greedy tradesmen (or women!)

[LolalovesLondon]

Is it just me or are some people taking the piss at the moment? Everyone I contact is booked up for weeks so it’s not lack of work I don’t think...
Had a quote last week to get a gas oven installed - straight swop, no new pipes or alterations, cooker is the same as we have now just a newer model.
£195 installation only.
Is that normal nowadays? 🤔

It can feel like a rip off but you are paying for expertise. As the partner of a joiner it does make us a bit annoyed when a client wants hand made furniture for Argos prices.....honey no it's £200 a day just for the labour!

@IncandescentSilver sounds like trades people get you off, calm down. If you're not being goady, what you have written is absolute tripe! Getting a qualification on a college course is all very well but are they good? A good one is extremely hard to find. A lot of trades are skill, hence the high asking price for decent ones. And we don't fetish trades AT ALL in this country. For some strange reason, people would rather their kids go to uni at all costs only to end up in a dead end office job. In Scandinavia and Australia, there is NO looking down on anyone working a manual job, they are very well regarded. Here not so much.

Yep, people with cushy/regular hours jobs fail to realise that whilst they get paid for wasted/down time, a self employed person doesn't.

That’s funny, I’d have thought the 8 years I spent being self employed before needing a change and going to my current ‘cushy/regular’ job meant I know exactly that.

It means I also know just how many ordinary expenses can be deducted before you reach the figure of take home pay. Expenses that those in regular jobs also have to pay, such as vehicle purchase, fuel, clothes etc

It means that when someone claims to be working 6 days a week with a day rate of £400 and they say they are taking home £38,800, whilst they may be telling the truth that doesn’t really represent the real picture

I also have enough family and friends in trades to know that there is a reasonable chunk of cash which isn’t declared. Obviously on MN though every tradesperson declares every single penny they earn

We had a new kitchen installed just over a year ago by an independent kitchen fitter and mate - apart from the plastering they did everything themselves (no gas) and we were happy with the work. His estimate included labour and vat and we didn't have any extras but we did tip his mate on the last day. Just before Christmas (so about 3 months after the work was finished and paid for), he stopped my partner locally and, in a not very subtle way, asked him 'for a drink' - he said this was commonplace at Christmas for tradesmen who'd done work for you through the year. He didn't get a drink from us but is this commonplace? He should have quoted more if he felt he was short changed, surely? It's not the same as giving the paperboy a Christmas tip. Anyway, it left a bad feeling and I felt it was unprofessional.

By the way, I’m in no way suggesting trades should be charging peanuts or that they aren’t worth the prices they charge. We’ve had some fantastic trades in who charge fair prices - sometimes pleasantly surprised by price, sometimes the price is more than expected - which means we make sure to use them again when we need to and recommend them.

Tradespeople "get me off"? What on earth?

I've done a lot of property development, successfully. I do as many easy trades myself as possible. It's not rocket science. There is however such a high degree of corruption and incompetence out there that goes unchecked, you are always crossing your fingers that you get a decent job done. The best firms are usually booked up here in Edinburgh on compulsary statutory repairs work - the massive scam/fraud involving council officials relating to that is another story.

Trades get away with so much bad practice because they aren't properly regulated at all.

It seems crazy to me that if you set up a taxi business, or a tattoo parlour, or a pub or restaurant or even a one off small event playing music, you have to jump through hoops to get a license and prove all sorts of things to the local authority (Inc passing the fit and proper person test) but if you want to repair someone's roof or plumbing, or the brakes on their car, you don't need to bother.

As for fetishisation of trades, it obviously hasn't occurred to certain posters that other workers also have to maintain a vehicle to commute to work, tax and insure it, none of which is tax deductible, pay tax on their earnings, work unpaid overtime as standard, pay professional registration fees and go on courses, etc....

Of course people are aware of that. But being employed is so different to being self employed. If businesses or self employed people weren't able to take their running costs out of what they charge their business would collapse. There are a lot of people who don't understand that turnover does not equal profit.

You need to look for someone whose self employed rather than a company, far less likely to rip you off. My father is horrified how much some charge for simple jobs taking under an hour - he charges £30 for the first hour plus travel (rural area) plus parts though he's just retired (aka more time to do up my house )

By the way, modern gas ovens just slot in, most retailers offer connection for £15 or so, certainly did when I bought mine, then my builders told me I was silly to pay it because it's easy to do yourself (they unplugged it to get to the back then reconnected it several times during renovations)

But there is price gouging going on - I had an extension built and was quoted £26k - £125k on the same plans. We went with a middle option who came recommended £42k plus had a few extras in the end. The higher quotes obviously didn't really want the job but if I had bit they would have made a large profit. The team were paid £150 a day they told me (x3 people) so a quick calculation explained why the company owner had such a lovely house (though to be fair he was on site working on the job as hes project manager and foreman to the work plus didn't shy away from hard graft!)

Well done for gettng a tradesperson over the threshold to do the job. I cannot get anybody to quote. Lots of "oooh, take some measurements, add a couple of diagrams and photos and email it to me".
Then absolutely no response. At all. Why????

@AllTheUserNamesAreTaken

Yep, people with cushy/regular hours jobs fail to realise that whilst they get paid for wasted/down time, a self employed person doesn't.

That’s funny, I’d have thought the 8 years I spent being self employed before needing a change and going to my current ‘cushy/regular’ job meant I know exactly that.

It means I also know just how many ordinary expenses can be deducted before you reach the figure of take home pay. Expenses that those in regular jobs also have to pay, such as vehicle purchase, fuel, clothes etc

It means that when someone claims to be working 6 days a week with a day rate of £400 and they say they are taking home £38,800, whilst they may be telling the truth that doesn’t really represent the real picture

I also have enough family and friends in trades to know that there is a reasonable chunk of cash which isn’t declared. Obviously on MN though every tradesperson declares every single penny they earn

I don’t agree.

I’m self employed and roughly, I can say I am only going to earn half of what I have invoiced.
That in a trade where there is little material to buy (such as all the tolls the lumber will have, screws, car etc etc).
The £40k ish a year sounds very plausible.

The situation will be very different for let’s say a math tutor who works from home and will have very little overheads and will be able to keep most of said income.

I came on expecting this to be about the amount of biscuits trades people eat!

@165EatonPlace same here. An electrician I’ve been happily using for 5 years did a job for me recently. He left it unfinished then vanished for a week and a half with no idea when he might be back.

More fool me I then asked him to quote for another job and didn’t turn up on the day we agreed. His ‘van got hit apparently’

When I finally got him round, he said I’d have the quote in 2 days, I chased him up after 5 as we’ve got scaffolding up for some roofing work which he needs to do the work. Obviously he therefore needs to do the work before this comes down. Apparently he hadn’t been able to do the quote on time because ‘his daughter had been rushed into hospital’ .

He then finally sent his quote, I asked when he can start, but his run of bad luck seems to have extended to him being abducted by aliens as I’ve not heard a word since. So now the scaffolding is coming down and I can’t get the work done. If he’d just said he didn’t want to do it, I could have asked someone else.

Expenses that those in regular jobs also have to pay, such as vehicle purchase, fuel, clothes etc

Anyone, even employees, who work at random different sites can claim their travel costs, so no different to self employed. A s/e can't claim normal commuting (i.e. home to office or depot) just like an employee can't. In reality, there are few differences between employee and self employed re travel expenses. Of course, an employed electrician will be provided with a van by their employer!

S/e can't claim "clothes" - they can, like employees, claim for protective clothing if required by the job. A s/e person claiming trainers or jeans is making a fraudulent claim, but nothing at all wrong with claiming for steel toe boots, trousers with knee support, day-glo jackets, etc - the kind of things an employee would be provided with if required by the job.

My dad always gave silly quotes for jobs he didnt want to do.

@IncandescentSilver

Tradespeople "get me off"? What on earth?

I've done a lot of property development, successfully. I do as many easy trades myself as possible. It's not rocket science. There is however such a high degree of corruption and incompetence out there that goes unchecked, you are always crossing your fingers that you get a decent job done. The best firms are usually booked up here in Edinburgh on compulsary statutory repairs work - the massive scam/fraud involving council officials relating to that is another story.

Trades get away with so much bad practice because they aren't properly regulated at all.

It seems crazy to me that if you set up a taxi business, or a tattoo parlour, or a pub or restaurant or even a one off small event playing music, you have to jump through hoops to get a license and prove all sorts of things to the local authority (Inc passing the fit and proper person test) but if you want to repair someone's roof or plumbing, or the brakes on their car, you don't need to bother.

Strangely, accountancy isn't regulated either, so it's not just "trades". Literally anyone can call themselves an accountant or set up an accountancy practice.

badbadbunny yes, that's true. Not chartered accountants obviously, but I get your gist.

There are clearly certain jobs and ares of business that remain strangely inadequately unregulated, even though tax evasion, cash in hand work and bad practice/incompetence are so common as to create a sizable problem. It's extremely odd. The insurance industry is also remarkably unregulated, and commercial property lettings too, when compared to residential property.

Landlords, for instance, here in Edinburgh, are so regulated that rented flats must be one of the safest places to be in the world in the event of fire.

Yet landlords could unwittingly employ a firm of complete cowboy roofers to fix the roof on that property, and there is very little effective control to prevent them being people with extensive criminal records including convictions resulting in jail terms for over charging vulnerable people (I know of at least 2 such firms), a string of failed companies behind them, and most likely, fiddling their tax and expenses.

I’ve opened a can of worms here obviously!!
I’ll try and answer a few later!

In the meantime... I’ve just phoned another bloke. I explained about the straight swop and he’s coming after he’s done his job list this afternoon! He’s just finished fitting a boiler so I’ve caught him before he starts the next one !
£69. He says it will take him less than an hour! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

edwin
If he’d just said he didn’t want to do it, I could have asked someone else. angry

I really wish people would do this!!
Forget high quotes for jobs they don’t want to do! Just say ‘ it’s not something I can fit in at the moment’ and let everyone move on!

Today 09:39 GameSetMatch

I came on expecting this to be about the amount of biscuits trades people eat!

We need another thread for that!!

YABVU!! If you don't like it, go back to college & learn how to do it yourself. Oh and then pay the annual fees for the GasSafe (of NICEIC for electricians), and have annual inspections on your work, and constant updates on the regulations meaning you have to pay for more courses to make sure you are compliant.

These people are trained, skilled people. They spend years training & then constantly have to renew the skills, certificates etc when new regulations come into force. Bearing in mind if you got somebody in that was unqualified, you could end up putting your lives at risk if something wasn't installed correctly, I think they deserve every penny.

Middke trades make mistakes all the time. The one way of ensuring its done we is to do it yourself. As I previously pointed out, my brother has a degree in electronic engineering, not a college or paid for regulatory board certificate. He can do the complicated maths and algorithms necessary to work out which types of electrical circuitry is required in which parts of properties. Which is certainly more than some of the people who are responsible for insiectibg the work can do. He has had to correct their mistakes a number of times.

The problem is that a lot of college courses and regulatory bodies aren't a very high standard and can be more of a tick box exercise. Some of the worst plumbing I've seen has been done by "experienced plumbers". Soldering of joints is all too often left to the school leaver or day release who isn't particularly interested and wants to get home early.

There needs to be better regulation to differentiate food trades from bad, and more effective penalties for those who get it wrong. Too often it's the consumer who has to pay for trades' mistakes.

@IncandescentSilver

Middke trades make mistakes all the time. The one way of ensuring its done we is to do it yourself. As I previously pointed out, my brother has a degree in electronic engineering, not a college or paid for regulatory board certificate. He can do the complicated maths and algorithms necessary to work out which types of electrical circuitry is required in which parts of properties. Which is certainly more than some of the people who are responsible for insiectibg the work can do. He has had to correct their mistakes a number of times.

The problem is that a lot of college courses and regulatory bodies aren't a very high standard and can be more of a tick box exercise. Some of the worst plumbing I've seen has been done by "experienced plumbers". Soldering of joints is all too often left to the school leaver or day release who isn't particularly interested and wants to get home early.

There needs to be better regulation to differentiate food trades from bad, and more effective penalties for those who get it wrong. Too often it's the consumer who has to pay for trades' mistakes.

Yes I agree, but then everyone can make mistakes, not just people working in these trade.

Regardless, there are excellent tradespeople all over this country & are well worth the money they get paid. I have worked in the construction industry for over 16 years, my father is an electrical engineer and my husband is a qualified electrician and a property developer, so I speak from experience. Yes the regulatory bodies need to be better & penalties certainly need to be more effective, but that all comes at a cost which inevitably will make its way down to the consumer anyway, so either way it's the consumer that pays for it in the end.

In my experience you get what you pay for. Get quotes & ask for previous customer reviews, or evidence of past work. Then choose based on a balance between price and reviews. My husband takes photos of all his projects from the ground up & is happy to share these to any customer that asks. He will also go out of his way to rectify an issue if one arises.

The problem is people often just go for the cheapest & end up paying twice because the quality of the work isn't great.

YABVU!! If you don't like it, go back to college & learn how to do it yourself. Oh and then pay the annual fees for the GasSafe (of NICEIC for electricians), and have annual inspections on your work, and constant updates on the regulations meaning you have to pay for more courses to make sure you are compliant.

Looks like the first tradesmen (the one I quoted in the OP) wanted to charge me a bit extra for his courses, fees and inspections then...
Thankfully, the second tradesman (gas engineer coming today) quoted for the job.