Greedy tradesmen (or women!)

[LolalovesLondon]

Is it just me or are some people taking the piss at the moment? Everyone I contact is booked up for weeks so it’s not lack of work I don’t think...
Had a quote last week to get a gas oven installed - straight swop, no new pipes or alterations, cooker is the same as we have now just a newer model.
£195 installation only.
Is that normal nowadays? 🤔

My husband is a self employed tradesman. He works six days a week, 11 hour days. His day rate is £400. He’s been in the business for 25 years and is considered to be one of the very best in his trade. He brings home £38k per year. Hardly a fortune.

From John Lewis website, similar prices elsewhere

Integrated gas oven £100

Freestanding electric/gas/ dual fuel cooker £75/ £85/ £100

Electric or induction/gas hob £90/ £100

Recycle and re-use

£20 per appliance

@JaniceBattersby

My husband is a self employed tradesman. He works six days a week, 11 hour days. His day rate is £400. He’s been in the business for 25 years and is considered to be one of the very best in his trade. He brings home £38k per year. Hardly a fortune.

If he's getting £400 a day 6 days a week, he should have an extra one in front of that yearly income.

My husband is a tradesman. People agree a price for his work and then if it takes him 30 mins to complete they think it is a rip off. But he has been doing this so long, what used to take him 4 hours now takes 30mins. Just skill and experience.

Plus insurance is a fortune and he has enough tools to fit out an average tool shop- he will always have the right tool and spare parts for a job. it all costs

A Gas Safe Engineer has to be used for this afaik as does most gas work. Could you ask the supplier if they can fit the appliance or get a British Gas quote to compare costs?

I think a lot of professional type people resent paying their prices because they see them as beneath them. People value their own skills because they think they deserve it, but undervalue other people's skills because they think anyone can do it.

I have a close relative who is a tradesman and whilst he can earn well when the going is good, it can be precarious. He had to have surgery a couple of years ago and had zero income for months, whereas in an office based job he could have been back to work inside a few weeks. Then there are the customers who get work done but 'forget' to pay. And the cost of tools, insurance, travel, running a van etc

The demand for his work is huge, and he says he often quotes what he feels to be an unreasonably high price if he doesn't want to do the job, such as if he gets a bad feeling about the customer, or he's too busy to want to take the job on. It is damaging to his reputation to refuse to quote for a job because he's too busy, but not so damaging to be viewed as too expensive. Despite this, he is often surprised to discover that the customer says he gave the most competitive quote, so either no one else wanted the job either, or else other people routinely charge a lot more than he does.

You are also paying for all the time they spend on the job away from your place. Preparing tools, buying supplies, travelling to and fro etc. We had carpet laid yesterday and it cost us 10k but it was three men working essentially a 12 hour day - getting up at 4 to drive to city an hour away to pick up carpet, coming back and installing. They worked non-stop once they arrived.

@Mimishimi

You are also paying for all the time they spend on the job away from your place. Preparing tools, buying supplies, travelling to and fro etc. We had carpet laid yesterday and it cost us 10k but it was three men working essentially a 12 hour day - getting up at 4 to drive to city an hour away to pick up carpet, coming back and installing. They worked non-stop once they arrived.

Wow! I hope that £10k included some very nice carpet too!

We recently had our roof replaced for £7k, which got us two full days work from a team of three scaffolders, and five-and-a-half days work from three/four roofers - say 25 person-days. All materials included. I think all involved should switch to fitting carpet.

My mother in law was charged over £500 to have her grass cut by a gardener we know. He is a neighbour, her husband had just died. He didn't really mention a price but said would come and help her out. It was very informal. Another man had quoted a fraction of that cost. Some thing like £150. So she trusted this man, being a neighbour who she was friendly with to a least be in a similar ball park. She had explained that she was hoping it would be a fairly regular job plus other jobs around the garden. It's a large garden to be fair. But the grass was cut fairly quickly. Then his wife came round to help and raked up the grass. My mil even helped them they then had tea and a chat for a while. They charged for the entire time they were both sat having a drink with a vulnerable, grieving elderly neighbour hours after the job was done. She paid it but never hired him again. We have learnt since he's got a reputation for this sort of thing especially with old ladies. He's finding it harder to get work. I don't understand why you would be greedy like that. He lost alot more in potential future earnings than he made.

My husband is a self employed tradesman. He works six days a week, 11 hour days. His day rate is £400. He’s been in the business for 25 years and is considered to be one of the very best in his trade. He brings home £38k per year. Hardly a fortune
38K? Is that what he’s telling you (or the tax man?) Your maths are way out.

Interesting comments from a most of you!
We’re just about to have a big job done that costs several thousand so I know how expensive big jobs can be - including overheads etc.

I spoke to my DB last night who works in a different trade. He laughed and said ‘yeh, that’s where the best profit is!’
He says he tries to squeeze in 2/3 small jobs a week alongside the big ones.

I hate that the devils How did they have time to sit around and have tea?
The hedge/tree cutting here is £500 + every year but it’s worth every penny. 3 blokes pile in and work flat out for around 3 hours. Really hard workers and brilliant at what they do. They shred everything on site and don’t stop until they’re done.
Approx £55 per hour per person and they obviously take overheads off that.

We recently had our roof replaced for £7k, which got us two full days work from a team of three scaffolders, and five-and-a-half days work from three/four roofers - say 25 person-days. All materials included. I think all involved should switch to fitting carpet.

Casper
This is my point really! We’re just about to have our roof done too and I don’t resent the thousands at all because I know how much work is involved.

@JaniceBattersby with those maths I hope you don’t do your husband’s accounts.....or maybe you do

400x6x48 (assuming he takes 4 weeks off a year) is £115,200

400 x 6 x 48 may well be more than 38k a year, but as a self employed trader, he will be paying out, off the top of my head:

Costs of owning and maintaining a vehicle, including tax, insurance maintenance
Costs of tools, and maintaining those tools.
Insurance for his tools, equipment etc
Consumables, depending on his work could be things like screws, tape, glue etc all the little things you need in every job.
Liability insurance
Travel to and from jobs
Tax
He may be paying for accounting services
Marketing/advertising
Professional memberships, accreditations and skills updates
Cost of premises if he works out of somewhere other than his home, and all the associated costs of that.

If he gets sick and can't work during that time, he doesnt earn, so he needs to cover that too.

There will be other things I've forgotten.
And that calculation assumes that for every day other than holiday he is able to charge the full day rate which is unlikely.
The poster says he brings home 38k, not that the business bills 38k before costs.

Re the £400 - - > £38k thing, also very important to realise that he won't work every day!

There will be a lot of days spent visiting new customers and speccing out new jobs, quoting for jobs he doesn't get, etc etc.

That doesn't sound a great conversation rate to me but I don't know what would be normal. However pp can't seriously think he's on the job for 6 full days every week can't they?

Why do you think they are greedy?
My pet hate is people on Facebook who ask fot a plumber /electrician /builder for a job, state it will only take them an hour and must be cheap
How the fuck do they know how long it will take? I can't go into a supermarket and say I want salmon that priced at £10 for £3.99. These people are professionals, value them

[quote AllTheUserNamesAreTaken]@JaniceBattersby with those maths I hope you don’t do your husband’s accounts.....or maybe you do

400x6x48 (assuming he takes 4 weeks off a year) is £115,200[/quote]
You've forgotten overheads, bad debts, non chargeable time (travelliing, estimates, visiting suppliers, bank, accountant visits), buying and running a van, insurance, training, health/life insurance, pensions, unpaid holiday/sick time, etc etc.

@NarcissistsEyebrows

Re the £400 - - > £38k thing, also very important to realise that he won't work every day!

There will be a lot of days spent visiting new customers and speccing out new jobs, quoting for jobs he doesn't get, etc etc.

That doesn't sound a great conversation rate to me but I don't know what would be normal. However pp can't seriously think he's on the job for 6 full days every week can't they?

Yep, people with cushy/regular hours jobs fail to realise that whilst they get paid for wasted/down time, a self employed person doesn't.

Some tradespeople are rip off merchants, we live in the type of house that makes some think we must be rich idiots, so they give us extravagant prices, others are good and give us the going rate,

One last year I got in to quote for some work, he’d done the same for someone I know a few months previously, he quoted me double. And it was instead of two grand he quoted me five. He was clearly too stupid to think I’d know the other persons price. The work was identical.

When I said but that’s over double what x paid, he looked surprised then got shifty started saying the price had went up, but obvs the labour and materials hadn’t more than doubled. I didn’t even give him a chance to negotiate, just sent him packing. It’s just a waste of everyone’s time.

I had it also for decorating work, one quoted me four times what everyone else had, so everyone else was in the region of two to three grand, she quoted me just under ten. And then tried to defend it by going on about how good they were and how much they wanted the work.

We aren’t rich, nor are we idiots, we want a fair price, and we’ve spent a ton of time and money renovating this place, and if they are going to front up and think we’ve money to burn they can sod off.

Your heart just sinks when they do it too, because you think oh, you’re that guy are you, who thinks oh I’ll double it for them.

Tradesppl also have shorter working lives- they need to put by for retirement more than a dr/solicitor etc

Yes, I think there's overcharging and I'm not really keen on the near fetishisation of trades because

-they charge as much or more as the professions, but they aren't subject to nearly such strict registration. Have you ever actually tried to complain to CORGI about an incompetent plumber? They do nothing, or at worst, write him a letter. Partial cash in hand and tax evasion is rife. They aren't audited for their charges or subject to the same professional regulation as eg doctors, dentists and lawyers.

• they operate in a protected market. Recent legislation means people are allowed to do fewer easy tasks in their own homes.

-they are recruited from only hakd of the population - in this country, trades are oddly male dominated. Its much harder for women to break through.

-a lot of what they do isn't that hard and diesnt take that long to train for, compared to 7 + years for a lawyer, doctor, etc. Basic plumbing isn't that hard to do yourself, neither is plastering. My brother went on an 8 week course at his local college, got a certificate at the end of it and plastered his own house. He is an electronics engineer - he has an honours degree in electronics and what he diesnt know about circuits isn't worth knowing. Yet to rewire a plug in his own home, he would have to go on a short course at a far, far lower level than he has already qualified at and pay registration fees. It's a closed market and one which doesn't ensure competence and quality as it isn't run to a professional standard.

• Don't get me started on roofing - there are so many scam roofers about who charge for work not done or not necessary.

-why on earth aren't trades licensed by local authorities so that licenses can be revoked if necessary? Motor garages are another example - overcharging, incompetence and shady iractuxes are ride throughout the industry, but compared to many areas of work, its very unregulated.

There is very real fetishisation of trades in this country, as academic education isn't really valued and British people like to think of the poor, hard working labourer rising to the top. As a result, it's incredibly expensive to get any building work done in this country compared to the rest of Europe. And of course, some women lije the idea of it being male dominated and see tradesmen as some kind of fantasy heroes...

Oh and let's not forget that trades can set up a limited company which they can wind up should they get too many people claiming against them for shoddy workmanship. Then they can just set up a new company and use that for work instead! Doctors, lawyers, dentists etc aren't even allowed to set up companies.

Obviously, serial offenders at winding up and setting up new replacement companies should be disqualified from being directors of companies, but unless it involves a public limited company, that hardly ever happens.

Meanwhile, if a dentist gets a minor driving conviction, they have to report it to their professional governing body, explain the circumstances and maybe attend a hearing and justify why they should be allowed to continue to practice.

As for fetishisation of trades, it obviously hasn't occurred to certain posters that other workers also have to maintain a vehicle to commute to work, tax and insure it, none of which is tax deductible, pay tax on their earnings, work unpaid overtime as standard, pay professional registration fees and go on courses, etc....

I had an oven installed 2 years ago for £50. Someone else quoted nearly £200. Madness.

Look at it backwards.

How many jobs - even short ones could a person do in a week?

10, perhaps 15. One or two in a morning one in the afternoon.

It’s not the job itself but getting there, trips to screwfix, maintaining a van and workshop, visits to quote for a job etc.

Then add in those things we expect from our own employers - holidays, sick pay, a pension.

If it’s a company you’ve got the non-productive/non-earning staff - those in the office, stores etc.

Them do your calculations using a decent average wage as a starting point.

You’ll soon end up with ball park figures to what many quote/charge.

This isn’t to say that some aren‘t greedy but the realistic costs are often more than we, initially, think are fair and reasonable.

On the self help side many jobs are easier than one thinks, plan them out, watch you tube videos. Buy yourself tools and count them into the cost of the job. Build up your confidence. Ask for guidance at B and Q, pick up their leaflets etc.