To ask why there is such food poverty.

[Helendee]

Please no flaming as I genuinely am seeking answers as to why so many children are going to school hungry these days.
This is not a critical or inflammatory post, I just want to know what’s gone wrong.
Obviously many of us are struggling financially because of Covid but food poverty was a huge problem before that.
Is it that benefit levels are too low to adequately feed our children?
What can we do to ameliorate the situation?

Wow!

Whole long list really so usually a combination of things:

Low benefit levels - they've been frozen for several years so in real terms have gone DOWN, also people not receiving what they’re eligible for because they’re not claiming it because they don’t know they can claim it.

The benefits system is a NIGHTMARE to navigate.

If you’re new to it you may well think dwp will be helpful and honest - ha!

I’ve had dwp people outright lie to me telling me I’m not eligible for a benefit when I am. They also will only discuss with you the specific things you ask about, they won’t prompt you or signpost you to additional help - partly ideology partly most new claimants are speaking to a call handler rather than someone who is well informed and experienced and who is operating off a script and is in trouble if they let a call go on too long.

I hold 2 degrees - one medical and one in English, plus I worked for the civil service myself for several years yet I had to learn the hard way not to even attempt to complete the forms myself as they’re designed to make rejecting a claim more likely.

I advise others in real life and on sm to get professional support and advice because it’s needed!

People having to wait months for first benefit payment if they lose their job etc

the whole system is hostile, adversarial. as if one is a criminal.

This is exactly it! Benefits claimants are portrayed and treated as if we are lesser value people who’ve “failed”

High housing and energy costs which not only reduces funds available to buy food but impacts what items a family or person can buy and cook. If you're in a one room situation with no fridge, freezer, cooker or hob just a kettle and maybe a micro to cook with and precious little space you're stuck for what foods you can buy store and cook. Plus if you're on a meter as I am that can be expensive to cook via electric in particular. A micro meal uses far less energy £££ than batch cooking a casserole in the oven

High public transport costs - people having to decide whether to eat or have the bus fare to get to work and so not lose their job

Unreliable wages - gig economy, zero hours and temp contracts etc we have a large employer near me who only employ management up on a permanent basis. Everyone else is on a temp contract, they get "let go" at the end of the contract and if they're lucky work elsewhere also on temp contract then after the legally allowed gap in time (I think it's 3 or 6 months?) are rehired again on temp contract. Allows the employer to dodge their responsibilities on maternity leave, redundancy etc while still having a trained and available workforce

Increasing food costs - yes they're comparatively cheap compared to other countries but as a percentage of income the prices are going up

food deserts - many parts of the uk are highly rural with no large supermarkets within walking or even one bus rides distance. Plus if you're old or disabled you're not able to carry loads back, so then you're looking at spending more to shop more often. Or shopping at convenience stores which are more expensive and very limited in choice.

Lack of education/skills with food has some effect as people who aren't confident aren't going to risk wasting precious food money on something that might not get eaten

People lacking energy/motivation to cook because they're working long hours for little reward then possibly have a long commute too

It’s expensive being poor ironically - being on an energy meter, limited access to housing and transport, not being able to take advantage of special offers due to initial outlay costs...

lack of financial education/ability - financial education isn’t taught to anyone really.

People don’t understand debt, savings, interest rates, financial products, banking laws, credit laws, their consumer rights (if something major breaks like a washing machine their heart sinks and they just think they have to somehow find the money to replace, but if it was faulty and/or broke down soon after purchase which in the case of white goods could be as long as 5 or 6 years you could be entitled to a free replacement. People also forget if they have signed up for guarantees etc), their employee rights (sick pay etc) and end up taken advantage of or losing out.

Martin Lewis has been agitating/advocating for financial education to become part of the maths curriculum for years - damn sight more useful for most than trig I’d say!

He’s also been one of the main journalists that pushed for and reported on covid relief measures, yet was repeatedly denied access to the briefings!

What can we do?

Well the biggest thing that would make a difference is removing the Tories from power to be perfectly honest.

The Tories is why there is so much food poverty. excellent post @SewingWarriorQueen75

Food poverty in children would have been eradicated if the Tories hadn't introduced austerity measures in 2010. Just saying. and kept stepping up “austerity” and blaming the poor for it being necessary rather than laying the blame where it belonged! With irresponsible rich twats like rishi sunak!

Despicable bunch of over privileged wank stains yep!

Certainly agitate and bug your Mp (whatever party they are) to:

Remove benefits caps

Increase benefit levels

Reduce housing costs (good luck with that one! Massive corruption here politically)

Improve public transport links and reduce costs

Reduce energy costs (again loads of corrupt practice)

Bring back proper home economics lessons into schools to teach kids about nutrition, let them practice and build the skills to cook from scratch, basic, cheap but tasty and nutritious meals.

Introduce an ACTUAL living wage not the renamed nmw which is not enough!

make Nrps pay maintenance and a realistic amount too not the pittance currently calculated - whole thread of its own really

I’ve known friends be much better off on benefits than working that doesn’t mean benefits are good, it means wages are shit!

so many of them have no understanding of how people not like them have to live and are completely unaware of their privilege

Less people had cars and normally only 1 per family. public transport was publicly owned and operated, more frequent, reliable and cheaper

Why don't you use a benefits calculator and then let us know how much spare cash you have after covering ALL of your expenditure? And how you propose to deal with emergency costs on that budget?

Excellent suggestion and one I might steal for future benefits threads/posters

And people asking where the money should come from to bring social security payments in line with the cost of living, should also be asking how the Tories can afford to spend billions on failed endeavours like the test and trace and then the lovely £3000 pay rise they’re getting while normal people can’t afford food omg yes! Grayling ALONE has cost the country billions! Then there’s hs2, the tax cuts given to the wealthy, Brexit...

often they should be classed as employed but it's a sneaky way for companies to use them and get rid when it suits yes that goes back to my point about knowing your rights!
Not to mention those sucked into mlms!

The 2 child limit cap which isn’t applied to the non maintenance paying, non resident parents - usually men!

@babyroobs the child element isn’t just meant for food though, it’s to house, clothe, shoe, clean, heat and educate a child and it’s not enough for that

I've always had more money working. And the more hours I've worked the better off I've been. Every. Single. Time. very similar history to you and I agree.

The problem is people aren't made aware when they claim Uc that this is going to happen so can't prepare for it how are they supposed to “prepare” when they’re likely barely managing ?

I’d also love to know if the “porridge made with water” is cheap brigade would like to eat that every morning for years on end?!

I think the benefit system is designed to keep wages low to help employers that’s definitely an element. True of in work benefits too - shouldn’t be necessary! An honest days LIVING wage for an honest days work is what should be happening!

Some posters on here seem to want to go back to debtors prisons and workhouses. usual suspects from what I’ve seen, certain ones I don’t even bother engaging with their views are so callous, extreme and unrealistic I don’t believe they’re posting in good faith.

When it snowed, the beast from the east, I couldn’t get out of my road for 4 days until the council digger came through. we were the same, local supermarkets didn’t get back to normal stocks for WEEKS!

There are supermarkets that do grocery deliveries for 1.50 I challenge you to find one that delivers for that price to a rural location! Where I am not even all the supermarkets deliver at all!

There are also minimum shop amounts for deliveries which not everyone can afford

It’s missing a whole lot of scaffolding and is starting to crumble. will perhaps collapse entirely in January

I’ve been on benefits and around many others who are for some time. I’ve yet to meet:

Anyone who deliberately got pregnant cos “free house and money”

Anyone not feeding their kids because they’re spending the money on “big tv, manicures and Fags” a very very few there were addiction issues but they went without food and fed the kids still.

@littleposh (apt name perhaps?) do you really think the poor - many of whom are poor through NO fault of their own, don’t deserve ANY pleasure in life? Because you speak as if being poor is a moral failure! A character flaw!

When it’s MOSTLY DOWN TO LUCK

I honestly wonder how many of the smug pps looking down their noses at those of us on benefits will cope if they end up on benefits themselves, which btw can happen to ANYONE (barring the very independently wealthy like Johnson, the royal family etc) all it could take is:

A Serious illness or disability - happening to you, your spouse, your child/ren

A Bereavement

A Job loss (covid and Brexit making this much more likely for many)

A Relationship breakdown

And you could be right in the same position as me!

When I had my very much planned and wanted dd I was:

happily married

securely housed

working in a well paid and secure job

healthy and fit.

Within 5 years I was

Divorced (he cheated)

Had narrowly avoided homelessness

Unemployed

Disabled (car accident not my fault numpty on his phone!)

Seriously mentally ill (combination of factors)

And though I didn’t know at the time as didn’t yet have a dx but dd has a disability too.

I’ve worked since I was 14, worked full time from 16 except when I was either on mat leave (3 months) or at uni which I did as a mature student and the 2nd time I was working part time too.

If you think it can’t happen to you THINK AGAIN!

But then maybe that’s why certain people try to convince themselves that those of us that are poor somehow deserve it, because they (falsely) think it means they’re protected!

With mass unemployment looming, there for the grace of God go I...

It was very interesting to see threads by newly redundant mners with no prior experience of the current benefits system. Including the OUTRAGE that they (valid claimants apparently compared to us non covid INvalid ones) were expected to use their savings! Apparently this was a reasonable expectation on “normal” claimants but was an unfair ask of them! A couple even went as far as to say they thought such rules should be “temporarily suspended” until the covid aspect was over! I SHIT YOU NOT! And I saw similar on other sm.

I would have a tax free income of £18k, approximately £9k would go on rent. Another £312 on council tax. I imagine utilities in small flat would be about £1200 a year, tv licence is £160, broadband is £250 a year. Mobile is say £250 a year too. Netflix is £72 basic.
That leaves about £560 a month. Knock off 160 a month for clothes, transport and toiletries. Leaves £100 a week for food and other things

Utilities in a small flat if metered could easily be 50% more than you’ve estimated

How are you calculating clothes transport and toiletries?

Because to be honest in many, especially rural locations you’re easily looking at £4-5 each weekday for transport alone (school, weekly shopping trip, occasional medical or dental appointment) so will set you back around £100 a month.

Clothes AND shoes for a growing child can prove expensive too even if buying cheaply they’re growing so need regularly replacing but even so we’ll take your figure of £60 for clothes and toiletries

So to do an SOA per calendar month:

Income 1500.00

Outgoings
Rent 750.00 (and hope it doesn’t go up or the landlord force you out because you’re now on benefits)
Council tax 26.00
Utilities 150.00
Tv licence 158.40 (I think you rounded up?)
Broadband 20.83
Mobile 20.00
Netflix 71.88 (ditto)
Clothes, shoes and toiletries 60.00

That comes to 1257.11

Which leaves 242.89 for:
Food, haircuts, stationery and other school supplies, otc meds and 1st aid products, cleaning products, and...

Any emergencies - eg something major breaks or needs replacing.

Usual household items need replacing - light bulbs, batteries, bedding etc

And as you yourself say that doesn’t include Christmas/birthdays, keeping child occupied and feeding them more than usual in holidays etc

Yea totally doable not stressful at all!

I believe that disabled people receive higher benefits than the one I used in my example and your £74 is not accurate. Try running the benefits calculator and look at the overall benefits a disabled person would receive. It really isnt a terrible situation. yes and WHY do you think that is because you clearly didn’t stop for even a second to consider that! It’s even more expensive to be poor and disabled!

and move somewhere else with cheaper costs.

Ffs! Cos of course it’s free, easy and no stress at all to move house! If they are needing social housing most of not all the time you need a “local connection” to even stand a CHANCE at getting on the lengthy lists. I’m disabled and have lots of family here, when I moved into this flat I had disabled dd still a child too. Took me 8 years to get it!

There’s a massive housing shortage.

There are a lot of jobs out there no there’s really NOT when was the last time you seriously job hunted? Especially in deprived areas?

There’s been almost 1/2 mn redundancies this year alone due to covid, plus all those furloughed that may end up redundant in the near future. My Dd is a student and was job hunting recently for pt work, she’s managed to find 2 jobs 4 hours a week each so actually only 1 days work a week to supplement her income at nmw. 1 of which is in hospitality so could vanish any minute if there’s an outbreak or lockdown where she is. When she was applying for these, and she’s still applying for Xmas work, she was seeing on the websites that each vacancy on each site had over 500 applicants often close to 100 - per vacancy! She’s not fussy, she’s worked in retail, hospitality, cleaning jobs... the jobs are not there!

I am extremely familiar with the situation that disabled parents have to deal with, thanks. sorry but I’m not convinced

It's a combination of things but let's be honest, in the last decade the cost of living has increased but the benefits have in fact decreased due to the caps they've introduced. Also high rent, housing shortages, min wage not matching up with the costing living is a recipe for disaster. Some families are absolutely hopeless in budgeting and prioritising and have no idea how to cook and some families generally can't decide choosing between having a roof over their heads or food on the table as they need to use their benefits to top their rent which leaves them short for that month, mind you god forbid these families ever come across an unexpected expense such as a broken washing machine.

It's sad, it's heartbreaking and genuinely think this shouldn't happen in a 1st world country in 2020. I don't know who to blame or where to start off from but we do also have a generation that has been reliant of 'be a single mother at 16 and you will get your house and never have to work a day or be work shy and smoke pot on the couch all day" which has harmed those that are genuinely in need of the benefits system. The benefits system was meant to be safety net not a way of living to push people in need through the holes.

I work in a family support role in a mother/child residential unit where about 80% of women are unemployed and on benefits. There is definitely food poverty, for a whole host of reasons. Before this role I was convinced if benefits were increased then poverty would be eradicated but now I know that if some families were getting double the amount their children still wouldn't eat more. In my setting it seems to be lack of education and poor priorities; some women don't prioritise food and would buy really nice (unneccessary) clothes for their children on payday and a takeaway for 3 consecutive nights then have to rely on a food bank for the rest of the month. Addiction is also a big issue, cigarettes will be the first item purchased when the money comes through. These women and their children always label themselves as poor, it is always someone else's fault, there is never any personal accountability and it almost becomes a culture. I know that in 99%of the cases when these women go and live in the community that their poverty will become worse, even though they've had classes with us on how to budget money and cook simple, filling meals on a budget. For some there is a poverty culture - we don't see this in non British women (particularly those from more developing countries) who will budget for food first and foremost and will go to charity shops for clothes. Takeaways are a rare great for them. Education is the key I believe in eradicating food poverty.

2010 and the start of Tory austerity. That's the sole reason. The Tories are lower than vermin.

@soffiee.

The blame lies squarely with Conservative Government. They have one rule form them and their friends and one rule for everyone else.
Who in the hell currently thinks you can survive on 66% of MIMINUM wage. How can they justify the money for a bridge that doesn't exist (£50million), , a ferry operator that doesn't exist, I could go on.

They are no good a budgeting or getting good value for things. I think the country needs a shake up.

Welsh Government stepped forward to cover school meals before Marcus Rashfird spoke up, look how it's being managed in Wales with a lower stipend from the Barnet formula and see how well they could do if they wanted.

The Tories only want their friends to do well and they don't want the voters to think this. Thet want people to think the poor are feckless and idle but most aren't.

It's a set ot shitty circumstances that spiral out of control.
And payments are for security, not for benefit. Work gives me benefits, payment to live is not a luxury.

I remember a family who lived next door to my brother, the eldest son was 16/17 and the youngest was a baby. The son would eat the baby jars and laugh when the baby had no food. The mum had issues with drink and drugs, no doubt they had social services involved, and what bit of money went on baby food got scoffed by the knob head brother (he wasn't hungry, he was very overweight) so the little one had no chance. Unfortunately you could give that family all the money in the world and it wouldn't be a happy safe home for a baby, it's really hard isn't it.

Graphista - A TV licence isn't £158 a month!

Outgoings
Rent 750.00 (and hope it doesn’t go up or the landlord force you out because you’re now on benefits)
Council tax 26.00
Utilities 150.00
Tv licence 158.40 (I think you rounded up?)
Broadband 20.83
Mobile 20.00
Netflix 71.88 (ditto)
Clothes, shoes and toiletries 60.00
So it's ok to pick TV AND Netflix over being able to provide healthy food for your family?

In my setting it seems to be lack of education and poor priorities; some women don't prioritise food and would buy really nice (unneccessary) clothes for their children on payday and a takeaway for 3 consecutive nights then have to rely on a food bank for the rest of the month
This was sadly also my experience when working with people in need.

It's all very well to put blame on everyone else, but nothing positive will happen if we don't also accept that individuals are the main factor to poverty. One main issue being lack of delayed gratification and putting pleasure above need. There are complex psychological and educational factors at sake, which extra money rarely helps but instead accentuate the issue and continue to perpetuate it.

there is never any personal accountability

This ^

It’s too simplistic to blame the government. Throwing more money at the situation or removing caps won’t work as too many already make choices based on others paying.

It would be better to ensure people took personal responsibility for choices they make so harsh penalties for failing to financially support themselves any children they choose to have whether male or female. A short term safety net the welfare system was meant to be, not for people to work part time, have children they can’t afford, live in expensive areas etc. Those working and not claiming have to make choices within their budget range and don’t get extras for the things they want.

I work full time and am often too tired to cook, but I do it because I can’t afford to eat convenience food and takeaways, and want the family to eat healthily. That’s a naff excuse to use for food poverty.

In my dim distant past I worked full time and aldo did 'on call', my longest working day started before 5.00am (on call) to 11.00pm I used to buy in ready meals for my oncall weeks because I value my sleep.

Whilst I hated home economics I had to do it for 3 years and I did learn how to chop an onion properly.

The final year seemed to be mostly mince with a break for a Xmas cake which was made in September and brought back for icing in December. You couldn't do that in a chaotic household.

There are a myriad of things that need to be in place to truly eliminate food poverty, and it's not all about giving people more money, it's investing in services and support which benefit the individual and the family, and in turn give people the opportunities and tools to put food on the table, even on a tight budget. Although a few people are just feckless, the vast majority of people don't exactly choose to live how they do, even in cases where it seems so, if they were given equal opportunites and knew differently that wouldn't be the case.

@zatarontoast Fantastic post - nailed it.

Sometimes people with awful lives need a treat to make them feel less awful - lentils don't cut it.

its too simplistic to blame the government. Throwing more money at the situation or removing caps won’t work as too many already make choices based on others paying it’s really not, the statistics prove that under thatcher and the more recent Torie government child poverty has soared and under Blair (who I’m not fan of) it went down. The tories also got rid of the Child Poverty Act and changed the parameters by which poverty is measured. Now you may be right that it’s not about throwing money directly into people’s pockets but fund services and education services properly.

The definition of poverty and food poverty specifically too.

The latter is maily based on a questionnaire. My DD refused to have an breakfast and after months of cattle, I gave up because I was exactly the same as a kid.

She wasn't in food poverty at all, had plenty of healthy food and although naturally skinny, it wasn't because there wasn't enough food in the house.

Yet she would have counted under 'food poverty' as not having a regular breakfast.

My neighbour is a good example of 'wrong choices'. She often moans about not having enough money to buy uniforms, had to go on a meter because she was failing to pay her electric/gas bill, yet 2 or 3 times a week, I see a van delivering take aways.

It is a fact that the u happier you are, the more likely you crave treats, but it sets you into a vicious circle and only these individuals can break them.

@Graphista

*I would have a tax free income of £18k, approximately £9k would go on rent. Another £312 on council tax. I imagine utilities in small flat would be about £1200 a year, tv licence is £160, broadband is £250 a year. Mobile is say £250 a year too. Netflix is £72 basic. That leaves about £560 a month. Knock off 160 a month for clothes, transport and toiletries. Leaves £100 a week for food and other things*

Utilities in a small flat if metered could easily be 50% more than you’ve estimated

How are you calculating clothes transport and toiletries?

Because to be honest in many, especially rural locations you’re easily looking at £4-5 each weekday for transport alone (school, weekly shopping trip, occasional medical or dental appointment) so will set you back around £100 a month.

Clothes AND shoes for a growing child can prove expensive too even if buying cheaply they’re growing so need regularly replacing but even so we’ll take your figure of £60 for clothes and toiletries

So to do an SOA per calendar month:

Income 1500.00

Outgoings
Rent 750.00 (and hope it doesn’t go up or the landlord force you out because you’re now on benefits)
Council tax 26.00
Utilities 150.00
Tv licence 158.40 (I think you rounded up?)
Broadband 20.83
Mobile 20.00
Netflix 71.88 (ditto)
Clothes, shoes and toiletries 60.00

That comes to 1257.11

Which leaves 242.89 for:
Food, haircuts, stationery and other school supplies, otc meds and 1st aid products, cleaning products, and...

Any emergencies - eg something major breaks or needs replacing.

Usual household items need replacing - light bulbs, batteries, bedding etc

And as you yourself say that doesn’t include Christmas/birthdays, keeping child occupied and feeding them more than usual in holidays etc

Yea totally doable not stressful at all!

Netflix is not £71.88 a month Your utility bills are huge. How many of you in the house? TV licence is not £158 a month. £60 a month for clothes shoes and toiletries? I would get rid of the TV and Netflix, cut down on the clothes and shoes and use soap.

@Fajitanita

There are a myriad of things that need to be in place to truly eliminate food poverty, and it's not all about giving people more money, it's investing in services and support which benefit the individual and the family, and in turn give people the opportunities and tools to put food on the table, even on a tight budget. Although a few people are just feckless, the vast majority of people don't exactly choose to live how they do, even in cases where it seems so, if they were given equal opportunites and knew differently that wouldn't be the case.

^this.

It’s entire systems failing. Graphista’s got a comprehensive list of them there. It’s never a matter of just throwing money at problems: that’s what drained the public purse and transferred funds into the private purse. We need once again to plan out systems against needs.