7 yo hits and scratches self when being told off

[yesiamyesiamokaycallmeback]

every single time there is even a whiff of being told off my kid actually screams and cries, drops to the floor or bangs his head against the wall (hard), scratches his face and body, and punches/ slaps himself.

I dont know what to do. he used to bang his head on the floor as a toddler but I hoped he would grow out of it and he just hasn't. it has gotten worse.

my Dh said we should ring the gp but our go is pretty old and I cant see him doing anything. he brushed off pnd because I still have a husband (wtf) and also his cure for mastitis was see how it goes or give up bf so... I cant see him doing anything other than blaming us (which would be fair enough but other kids don't do this)

we do not hit/ smack but we do end up shouting.
I have asked my family what to do and all of the points on the Internet searches (take away toys/ ban screens/ time out etc) have been tried and we have been consistent for years nothing bleeding works. I am scared for him. he is too old for these massive toddler like meltdowns. way too old.

See a different GP in the same surgery. You don't have to see exactly the same one every time.

Also be prepared - possibly a lot easier now it's telephone appts so you can have all your notes and computer files at the ready. Be ready with what you expect as the outcome of the appt so you aren't just given 'it's normal for his age'.

It does sound like ADHD / PDA possibly.

I can be asking him to stop jumping off the table or something like that for 10 mins straight qnd he will basically just laugh

Personally I would not ask him more than twice. Just calmly lift him off the table say "I'll help you off" take him out of the room etc or redirect - make a suggestion that maybe he jump off something else safer.

I would look at the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. And at strategies for making demands on people with PDA - this site might be helpful. If it's not PDA it can't hurt to try anyway.
www.pdasociety.org.uk

Yeah you need to get a referral. Are you sure school have no concerns about him?You say the teacher gets frustrated and often needs to speak to you after school?
I sometimes think teachers are reluctant to mention big concerns, especially when they're young, and are more likely to want to "wait and see".
I think you need a meeting with the teacher and be totally honest with them about his behaviour at home. You may find out a bit more about what's happening in school, and they might be happy to support a referral.

1. Change your GP
2. Stop shouting at your DS. His behaviour is likely to come from a place of fear. By hurting himself, it distracts you from the issue.

My DB used to do something similar when we were younger.

He had an illness that he could bring on by doing certain things and did so when he was in trouble.

Of course when he became ill, whatever he did wrong was forgotten, because he was in a bad way.

Try speaking calmly, without a raised voice in a non threatening manner when he's done something wrong. Shouting can be as threatening to a child as being hit.

My DM used to shout a lot and it can make a child feel anxious and become nervous.

fair point about the teacher-
okay I can do that. what do you suggest I do to redirect him? he can spend quite a long time drawing. do you think that would work as redirection or does it have to be q similar thing?
we live in a flat so jumping off anything is a no go because of neighbours (who probably want us gone anyway)

I am really getting upset by the way he talks to me- he got up after a huge long battle to get into bed, just to tell me he wished he could punch me in the face.
it breaks my heart but if I'd have said that as a kid to my dm I would have got a slap! I cant believe I'm one if those broken down parents who can't control their own child's behaviour.

just for perspective- very well behaved when shopping in supermarkets etc. loves the park.

my house is destroyed though. can't control him at home and younger siblings are following suit. god.

Oh OP you really sound at the end of your tether with regards to where to go.
Your little boy sounds like he is keeping everything in and exploding when he’s with you because that is where he is safe.
It’s hard, I have been there. My DS used to say and do some awful things and once he got in to that state it could take up to 40 minutes to get out of it.
There are lots of things you can do and lots of support out there. Thankfully DS’s school were amazing and I did an awful lot of work with him on positive behaviour and talking through emotions. It’s not all plain sailing but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
You can self refer to Camhs, there is a long wait so best to do it sooner rather than later. See if there are any trainee play therapists in your area looking for some portfolio experience too. Good luck.

Oh gosh :( I feel your pain, many do. You need some support and he needs to be assessed.

If you look on the local offer section of your borough website you’ll find who the parent partnership service are and independent support services. You don’t need to have a diagnosis to have support from them.

You could to be refered to family support, It sounds like they would be helpful to you.

Set a meeting with the senco and discuss behaviour support, referals and an educational psycologist assessment. It really varies by area, I’ve heard some are self referal, normally it’s done by schools for cahms or child development services. Again which is correct varies by area, your senco will know the correct route.

@Yesmate
actually you have just twisted a horrible time for me into a really nice thing. He can go crazy with me because he is safe, when I shout I always apologise after and we make up and its nice again.
I try and talk through his emotions and ask why he feels he has to hit himself or me or whatever he did but he always says he doesn't know.
Are there any tips or tricks into helping him articulate his feelings?

I do remember being a child and playing up for my mom because I knew I could get away with it with her and she wouldn't hold a grudge (she was soft and I'm soft) so I do try to remember what it was like as a child wanting to climb mt everest (the bookshelf) or swing like spider man or try to fly again and again trying different ways absolutely convinced I could do it.
but we were in a house with no downstairs neighbours to think about and a big garden and street to play in when we get too loud.

I just can't get through

It was something I took comfort in when my DS was struggling. At least with me he knew he could get it all out.
I don’t claim to be an expert or perfect and we all have our limits but one thing I did quite early on was set out where he could vent his anger/frustration etc. He was to take himself to his bedroom and he could scream and shout and anything he damaged, broke etc would be fine for good. I was never too far away because I didn’t want him to hurt himself but I tried to stay out of his sight line. Once he knew he could express everything in there it became easier and the slamming and throwing etc stopped quite quickly. I think because he knew he could it took the need away somehow. Don’t get me wrong, he still slammed the door back and forth and screamed and shouted but the level decreased pretty swiftly.
I also made a rule that he wasn’t allowed in my bedroom if I took myself in there because he was hurting my heart, that was my safe space like his bedroom was his.
We did breathing, counting to ten (numerous times over and over is needed) tapping on his wrist to try and calm.
Hope that’s helped a bit

I tell you what helps with my DS when he is being hyper - sensory equipment.
We have a trampette which he spends time on - it isn't noisy if you have carpet or a big rug.
A door swing - DS spends HOURS on his. It's a swing with attaches to a door frame so no special installation involved. You can get climbing attachments and other stuff too. It was expensive, but he got it for Xmas and has had his money worth several times over.
A peanut ball - for rolling over.
There's loads of other things - that's just what we have. Most of it can be stored away so doesn't take up too much space, athough I appreciate in a flat things may be tight.

I agree you are his outlet the one who he can let go with. It sounds like his really struggling.
Can you create a quiet space, nice lighting, bean bag, on a good day have a chat to say if he is feeling stressed he should relax here.
Never use this space for punishment or threaten it.
Definitely speak to the school, record him in meltdown if necessary, I did with my DC.

The two settings thing can be wrong. Children with asd can hold it together in school and fall apart at home

Change gp. Explore adhd, asd, pda

thats a great idea with letting him basically get it all out in his room but I will have to have a chat with dh because of neighbours.
maybe scream into a pillow or something.
and I definitely like the idea of my room being my safe space like his room is his, although he shares so it may not be as effective.
dh has had chats before about mommy and daddy having needing time outs like he does. didn't last too long but definitely opened the door into realising that parents are people too

I have looked into gorilla gym (I think I forget) and we will be getting one for Xmas hopefully.

thank you everyone for the suggestions its very much appreciated

oh what does the tapping do? is it just like a calming thing for your kid or is it more ... science y ?

It’s actually a CBT technique I did many many years ago. I don’t know huge amounts about the theory behind it just that it focuses the mind on something else and touch has a way of being you back to reality.
It’s all about finding the calming techniques that work for him, remember they won’t always work though (normally just when you think you’ve cracked it!)

I would speak to the school about extra support, we have a pupil inclusion team which bridge the gap between those that have a SEN diagnosis and those that don’t. You will hopefully be surprised, even in the current climate, just how much support there is in your area. It comes in all forms.

@EmeraldShamrock I have recorded to show their dad just how different they are when he's gone. there have been times when he has left for work, forgotten something and come back in to be completely shocked by their behaviour (its not just ds - but he us the one im worried about)

pda seems to tick many boxes. he really will do anything but what is asked, even if it is out on your boots to go out to the park- very annoying because if I have to battle to do the fun stuff then it makes me resent the fun stuff. and sometimes I am ashamed to admit, we don't even make it out because of the fight to get coats and shoes on.
we just run out of time and I cant manage all the kids outdoors when everyone is hyped up and upset. I know it doesn't help at all but excuses excuses excuses
vicious cycle and all that

@Yesmate okay that sounds great ill look it up and see if it helps.

when he was younger I used to stroke his nose and forehead to calm him down and cuddle in, I think ill bring that back in. sometimes I forget he's still my little baby

The other thing that jumped out was his laughing at his brothers pain.
My DS apparently DMDD but I know it is ADHD he's still young he enjoys when someone falls or gets hurt he laughed hysterically when a DC fell out of a tree, the DC was really hurt, DS was bent over laughing.
It is hard to get help.
I wish you luck, your going in for battle.

I have 3 adhders and my youngest (7) is like this. I'm doing zoom programme called the incredible years and working through this book.
You can get second editions cheap on amazon or ebay. I'm finding it useful as doesnt just focus on bad behaviour.

www.amazon.co.uk/Incredible-Years-Trouble-Shooting-Children/dp/0578434512/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?hvlocphy=1007280&hvnetw=g&keywords=incredible+years+book&hvadid=259096213116&qid=1603231494&dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwlbr8BRA0EiwAnt4MTrF1BkUc1kLesQ_V9c-HTd2XZVk-UeCc6I_TebboEn7N32eJLN6OlhoCF38QAvD_BwE&hydadcr=13695_1757067&hvdev=m&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-316889639273&adgrpid=52365533239&hvrand=8455075740407845946&sr=8-1

And I paid to get my youngest diagnosed as waiting list had become huge.

@Waveysnail I have literally just started working through that with a mental health team in the last couple of days. Sorry OP I don’t know why it slipped my mind!
We are loving special time and I am already noticing a change around that time. We both really look forward to it.
If you can OP I would recommend that book.

@Yesmate I'm only on week 3 but found taking focus of bad behaviour is really helping. Dont get me wrong theres still screaming and shouting (and sometimes not the kids) but kids di seem bit happier

@Waveysnail Great stuff, glad it’s going well. Good luck with the rest of it. This parenting lark is tough!

If he likes drawing then that could help with distraction/calming.
There are some great channels on YouTube like Art For Kids where they go step by step through drawing cartoon figures- anything from dinosaurs to pokemon & lego.

The only thing with PDA is he is has to do it in all settings. It is very hard to get a diagnosis, mine won't budge for me, teacher, or his dad they said it isn't.
To the point teacher made him put on his coat now he won't wear one to school ever.

Dude, there may be other things going on here. You've had great advice if that's the case.

But, I think you could try a different approach. Love bombing kind of thing. Big cuddles, telling him that you know he feels terrible about the marmalade, that you understand. That you're on his side. Soothing, loving and claiming. Stop the escalation. If he hurts you, you just walk away. It can feel counter intuitive, but surely it's worth a try?