Kids snacks at school - white carbs twice before lunch

[prettyflowersinthesky]

DD is in y4.

I seriously don't want to be "that" parent so am wondering on the consensus on this.

DD's school has started giving the whole school's kids stodgy white carbs with jam twice before lunchtime (bagels).

Once when they arrive in the morning, and then again at break time.

DD is coming home with most of her lunch uneaten.

I fully appreciate about food poverty and that giving the kids food in this blanket way is a way of addressing that without singling out or embarrassing hungry children or families.

But I question

1. Whether or not the white carbs plus jam is appropriate nutrition
2. Whether or not most kids really need this
3. Whether or not two snacks between breakfast and lunch is excessive

There is no requirement for the kids to take and eat the snacks but to say to my child not to take them when the other kids are seems unfair.

I'm a bit torn, and certainly don't want to deny hungry kids access to food. But also wonder if the school needs to give this twice and also maybe the nutritional content of the snacks could be improved (e.g. fruit, whole grain snacks or something instead). I do appreciate that kids need more carbs than adults.

What does everyone think? Is this appropriate? I feel for the vast majority of kids without food poverty issues this is not necessary, so by serving all the kids a snack it is enforcing bad snacking habits, poor food choices as well as encouraging childhood obesity.

In many very healthy countries no snacking is allowed although I appreciate for very young children it may be necessary.

I am wondering whether or not to speak to the school about my concerns about them finding a better way to address the issues for the hungry kids.

But I do not want to speak up if I am seriously misinformed about all of this, hence interested in your responses. Thanks.

Yanbu = this is not appropriate / YABU - give the kids the snacks

If half a bagel is going to tip a child into obesity then the bagel isn’t the issue!

Of course half a bagel won’t tip a child into obesity. Five days a week for most of the year will. You know this.

As @drspouse says, there have been lots of declarations about what should or shouldn’t be happening, but no actual practical suggestions about things that a head teacher with no budget or spare staff can do now to feed hungry children, including those in KS2 upwards who are not entitled to free fruit.

And while individual mumsnetters might be happy to pay their share into a scheme providing fruit for all children, not all families can afford this, and schools don’t have the funds to cover the shortfall. Schools can only ask for parental contributions for costs for their own child.

Breakfast clubs may well have worked in the past, but yet again nobody has offered a practical suggestion about how this would actually run in schools now, given the staggered start times, non-mixing of bubbles, and lack of staff. Schools have to work with what is actually deliverable with the resources they have, not what should happen in an ideal world.

There have been plenty of suggestions, most of them about providing healthier alternatives and/or targeting the minority of children who will need this food.

Over feeding children is not a benign act with no consequences at all.

@rainyoutside

How do you know that category?

I’m not being contentious here, but IME people get confused a lot between a child on FSM and a child from a chaotic background. They aren’t totally interchangeable. Many children will come from homes where for a variety of reasons their parents or parent are claiming benefits that make them eligible for FSM, but they will still eat.

It’s a dangerous assumption and it isn’t even true.

And this is why access to a universal scheme is better placed to ensure all children who need it are fed. There are various reasons why families entitled to FSM don’t actually claim them, and in some cases the level of disorder in the household means that even recognition of the need for FSM goes unaddressed. And yes, that’s neglect, and while schools are pressing the relevant services to take action, they do what they can to make sure the children concerned don’t go hungry.

@rainyoutside there have been plenty of opinions about what would be healthier, but no actual workable suggestions about how headteachers with no money, spare staff, or child-grouping flexibility can implement them.

Absolutely but in doing so if their actions are causing harm to children who ARE fed, then that also isn’t right.

Society has to work on the assumption that parents will care for their children. When we decide to assume the opposite, the results don’t tend to be good.

Someone might not give their child the breakfast you personally would: they might also make other parenting decisions you personally would not, but this doesn’t equate to neglect. A school might have high numbers of children eligible to claim FSM, but not all of those children will be hungry, or indeed neglected. It’s so insulting to claim they are.

If children are having a good diet, surely a bagel wouldn't tip them into obesity, and it has been suggested to the OP that she changes slightly what she feeds her daughter to factor in a bagel if she knows her daughter is having one every day

If you only have a school lunch then a bagel on top isn't going to tip you into obesity but will at least fill your tummy for a little while.

If a school is in a deprived area and have an idea that a number of children are not having breakfast before school, how do you suggest they find out the actual children who don't have breakfast. Do you suggest a questionnaire, the teacher asking when they do the register? Many teachers will have an idea of some of the pupils who need help, but there will always be some who slip through the net. Can you imagine being a child who doesn't have breakfast, and you are in a class with a few other pupils who don't have breakfast either, and they have been identified as ones who can have a free breakfast/snack but you haven't.

inertia it really could and should be as straightforward as one bagel a day, not two. I’d replace the second bagel with fruit at break.

ineedaholidaynow

I think for many people, eating a bagel a day on top of three meals, would cause them to gain weight.

Some children just don’t gain weight: some do. I always did. I would have gained weight with bagels with butter and jam provided daily.

Ultimately, we can’t work society on the assumption that parents won’t parent their child. We just can’t. Not without interfering in basic family life to such an extent that it becomes actually intrusive.

No system is perfect but on the whole systems are set up for the majority, not the minority.

It's not two bagels! The charities that organise these breakfasts provide one bagel a day. Op's school gives them out over two sessions. Some have said that their schools have half a bagel a day.

Rainy, are you ignoring the fact that pp who is actually familiar with this scheme said it's not one whole bagle tey get, only a 1/4, up to 2 servings. So, even they had max for breakfast and snack, 1/2 of the bagle x 2 so only i whole piece of bagle a day. And who is going to pay for the fruits that replaces second portion of bagle?

So do we just ignore those children @rainyoutside, and just look after the majority

@ineedaholidaynow

So do we just ignore those children *@rainyoutside*, and just look after the majority

Is it ‘ignoring’ these children when they go home at the end of the day, and might not get an evening meal?

How about beds: some children don’t have a bed, and we might embarrass them if we ask so let’s just assume all children don’t have a bed and make them sleep over at school.

It isn’t ignoring or not caring to acknowledge that some levels of intrusion are harmful. It would obviously negatively impact on the overwhelming majority of children if they were forced to stay in school overnight: most benefit from spending time with their families. So we don’t do it.

The point with the bagels is that it amounts to too much food. Even if it is two halves that essentially is an extra meal a day most children do not need.

Which charity are people on about anyway? Magic breakfast provides food (cereal or a bagel and juice) to be eaten in the breakfast club prior to school which everyone should be invited to, they don't just provide food to be handed out to anyone during the day, the idea is that they get food but also support and someone to talk to before starting the school day. If they have bagels to hand out to all during school time then perhaps other schools would benefit more.

@rainyoutside

There have been plenty of suggestions, most of them about providing healthier alternatives and/or targeting the minority of children who will need this food.

Over feeding children is not a benign act with no consequences at all.

They are all completely impractical. Food that doesn't last the day/two or three days. Food that children are unlikely to eat (I know my two, who are exposed to a very wide variety of food at home, wouldn't eat cheese or eggs for breakfast) Food that's too expensive to give to the whole class on a daily basis. (Food that isn't free, TBH) Food that needs cooking (where? how?) Separating children who need feeding from those that don't (where, in COVID compliant times? how, without singling out those that are likely to be shamed?)

If other people would like to set up a charity to deliver "approved non-carb food" based on their own particular dietary suggestions from their self-trained Google degree in nutrition, to each school, free of charge and ready to eat, fire away.

I disagree drspouse. I think this fixation on the fact that only a bagel with jam will do is ridiculous.

In the current climate some breakfast clubs are not operating so the food will be distributed at the start of the school day. It has to be bagels because the logistics of bowls, cutlery, sink, microwave, toaster, fridge etc isn't feasible when there is one adult to 30 children in a classroom

So what do you suggest @rainyoutside? Bearing in mind you will have to factor in no costs to the school either in respect of the food or staff, and the fact that many schools don't have a kitchen, and you can't mix bubbles and if they eat in the hall they will need to clean it before lunch, with no staff to do that.

A bagel may not be the best solution but in the current circumstances it's not the worst.

@rainyoutside

I disagree drspouse. I think this fixation on the fact that only a bagel with jam will do is ridiculous.

Nobody has said "only a bagel with jam will do". It happens that bagels last well, are eaten by many children willingly, provide complex carbohydrates, and are free for the schools. As well as @kursaalflyer's points about ease of distribution in the classroom (cereal is also provided to many schools free but it's not so easy to give out in the classroom, especially not at breaktime). As I've said, if you want to set up a charity providing what YOU think is a nutritious breakfast to those children YOU think should be getting it, fire away.

I’ve suggested things three times now, ineedaholiday - I’m not being an arse there (honestly) I miss things all the time on longer threads but I don’t see there’s much to be gained from endlessly repeating myself.

This is not a benign action. It will cause harm. Directly, through weight gain and obesity, and indirectly, through establishing norms and habits.

And how very patronising to state that one can only object to something if you set up a ‘charity’ yourself (anyone mentioned who gains the most from Magic Breakfast, by the way?)

You can mention it all you like, @rainyoutside, but if you can't offer any practical alternatives (or, frankly, evidence that one bagel per day per child is harmful) then you can't be surprised that people reject your ideas.

@rainyoutside

inertia it really could and should be as straightforward as one bagel a day, not two. I’d replace the second bagel with fruit at break.

In reality it's probably half a bagel at a time anyway, as other posters using similar schemes have suggested.

You're a headteacher. KS1 fruit is funded. You have no budget for KS2 fruit. How are you paying for it?

We all know HTs have to make tough decisions for the wellbeing of children. That's what they've been doing, with the last 5 years being especially hard-hitting in terms of funding cuts- there isn't any give in the system for things like this.

I’m not particularly interested in whether the ideas are accepted or rejected given that I am not likely to be in charge of giving primary aged pupils breakfast any time soon. What I am strongly against is others making decisions that are harmful to the majority because of the perceived helplessness of a minority.

Rainy, my dc has jam sandwich everyday for his lunch, he is a fussy eater with multiple food allergies. He is under the dietician. She reckons his diet is way better than most of children his age.

For the children eating healthy meal at home, 1/2 or 1 piece of jam bagle a day won't make them obese, or damage their health, especially if the parents adjust the amount of carb for breakfast and lunch if the needed/wanted to.