How to handle this? SEN child swearing

[WillowB]

DS 8 attends cubs each week. The last 2 weeks he has come home complaining that a child in the group has been swearing. After a bit of digging on my part, the child concerned has ADHD and behavioural issues. This week he apparently told another child to 'f#ck off you pile of sh#t'. I'm not particularly sensitive but to be honest I'm not happy about DS hearing this kind of language on a weekly basis.
DS says that the leaders have threatened a few times to send the child home but they seem to largely shrug it off.
WIBU to raise this with the leaders of the group. I don't want to be 'that parent' and I understand that this child may find group situations tricky but this just doesn't sit right with me.

*Puffalicioustotally disagree. ADHD only wouldn’t account for this behaviour. He must have something else going on in his life to feel like this. ASD causes anxiety so can result in lashing out, but ADHD alone, absolutely not. There must be more than just ADHD, such as ASD, anxiety, Tourette’s. There’s a huge misunderstanding in what ADHD is and this type of behaviour is probably due to comorbidities or environmental factors, notjustADHD.

As a parent of an ADHD kid I get pissed off at the label being misused to explain bad or aggressive behaviour. It leads to people making judgements about my child which are totally inaccurate.

ADHD may cause kids to struggle with impulse control or emotional regulation but it doesn’t make them aggressive without compounding factors*

Shastabeast you are not helping. Just because YOUR child is different doesn't mean that this child has been abused, neglected or has MH issues! How completely ignorant- and you're the one talking about how ADHD is misunderstood. As well as having a neuro diverse child I work with teenagers with adhd and every one of them is an individual who presents differently.

As PP have corrected you: asd is NOT a mental health issue but a neurodevelopmental one.

This child was clearly aggressive and this needs addressing by the group, and if other children are upset by the swearing the group need to talk to parents to decide how to tackle it. E.g when my DS had.a seizure at Beavers they asked me and DS to speak to the others to explain what had happened so that they understood and weren't scared. What noone needs is people like you judging kids , saying they've come from an abusive home!

Please stop excusing bad behaviour because of sen. My brother has adhd and would never speak like that. Swearing is not a symptom of adhd and he needs to learn that he can't behave like that. Definitely inform the leaders.

No one has excused bad behaviour because of SN (SEN refers to educational needs) however people have explained that poor impulse control and lack of awareness around social boundaries can mean that some children with neurodevelopment conditions do swear and either don't realise it's inappropriate or don't view it as inappropriate.

You could use it as an exercise in getting a grip as a parent, and for ds perhaps removing the cotton wool. Surely at that age he should be aware we aren't all the same and he's past the stage of parroting every word he hears? If not then that's an issue for you to work on, rather than one for the other child to solve.

I can and do swear like a mother fucker when I feel like it, but for me it has nothing to do with my adhd and it's an active choice. However, contrary to popular belief, we don't all share a hive mind or homogenous personality or symptoms just because we share a dx. Surprising as it may be, we're individuals just like nt people, so I don't find it difficult to understand that my adhd isn't representative of every other person with the dx.

Oldest DS swears, he's 11yo. Most of the time he remembers its not appropriate, most of the time he doesn't do it, most of the time he limits himself to "heck" or "gosh" or "darn" but if something flips his switches then out come the swears. He's not even aware he's doing it but anything that affects his control - excitement, shock, anger, upset, joy - also affects his language filters. I'll never forget Christmas morning the year before last when he walked into the front room, saw the presents, and loudly exclaimed "holy fuck!"

@BuddyRun why should swearing not upset the OPs son? It would upset mine too. Every child may have a different tolerance for such behaviour and each reaction is valid. What bothers one may not bother another but I’m sure the group has rules about accepted levels of behaviour and that is the root of the issue here imo

@TrainspottingWelsh

You could use it as an exercise in getting a grip as a parent, and for ds perhaps removing the cotton wool. Surely at that age he should be aware we aren't all the same and he's past the stage of parroting every word he hears? If not then that's an issue for you to work on, rather than one for the other child to solve.

I can and do swear like a mother fucker when I feel like it, but for me it has nothing to do with my adhd and it's an active choice. However, contrary to popular belief, we don't all share a hive mind or homogenous personality or symptoms just because we share a dx. Surprising as it may be, we're individuals just like nt people, so I don't find it difficult to understand that my adhd isn't representative of every other person with the dx.

You have completely missed the point. The issue isn't about my DS parroting swear words. Of course he is old enough to have heard them before and knows not to use them. This doesn't mean that he has to happily accept being sworn at. I wouldn't tolerate being sworn in an aggressive way by a colleague at if I was at work or by a stranger in the street. If I went to a hobby/group and people used constant bad language or swore at me then I wouldn't particularly want to go anymore. I don't think that's being precious. I think most people would feel the same. It's not deemed acceptable to swear at people at school/work/in the street, why should it be ok at cubs? It isn't. The issue here is that the child swearing clearly has SN which I wish to be sensitive towards whilst respecting the fact that my son isn't comfortable with being sworn at.

@WillowB I completely agree! Being uncomfortable with swearing isn’t precious it’s a legitimate response just as indifference is. I stand by my original advice if highlighting this to the group leaders and seeing what their take is. If it’s behaviour that is unconscious or unavoidable by the child then fine, educate the other kids but if it is a choice the child is making then that’s not acceptable.

I think you have to accept the cub group leaders’ judgement on this one.

You do not know all of that child’s circumstances. And there are plenty of people who would be entirely socially excluded and damagingly isolated in life if they had to be neurotypically ‘socially acceptable’ every time they left the house.

Accept it. Use it as an opportunity to teach your own child according to your own personal set of values and leave it at that.

I can be pretty much 100% certain the last thing this child (or the parents) need right now is other parents ‘having a quiet word’ / complaining about them.

I haven't missed the point at all. Firstly, because swearing isn't the height of offensive/ upsetting, and it's misleading to raise a child to believe otherwise. Eg if I say 'I hope you / loved one (insert something hurtful)' it's a damn load more upsetting than 'go fuck your self you bastard cunt'

Secondly, and more importantly, none of us are in a position to say whether or not this child is using bad language as a way to control their emotions. In the same way many nt people that don't usually swear will do so in response to extreme pain or hurt.

Thirdly, regardless of this particular child, we should all be teaching our dc that they can only control their response to others, not what others do. It shouldn't exactly be difficult to explain to your ds not to take it personally.

I wouldn't have expected, let alone supported my dc to feel uncomfortable because a child in a wheelchair couldn't run or climb in a way that conformed to their wants, so neither would it occur to me to expect a child with different needs to conform to my child's wants.

You should definitely remove your child from cubs straight away. He has no hope of learning to be tolerant and to celebrate differences if you are so ignorant. In fact, I hope you do rather than ruin it for another child.

Cubs/Scouts/beavers etc are remarkably tolerant, inclusive and all round wonderful which is why they tolerate you too. I think we should celebrate the whole scout movement 👏 it's the best thing my son ever got involved with.

That child and his parents were probably overjoyed their son was able to join something as wonderful as cubs and be accepted. With these needs he's likely to find school tricky, cubs tricky and any social interaction. Perhaps you think these children should be kept out of your way.

What do you hope to happen because of this? You want him to leave don't you? Or maybe because of you 'having a word' his needs will suddenly disappear? If you cause trouble for him and his mother feels so awful she feels she will have to remove him to get away from your disapproval he will have another failed attempt in the neurotypical world and some poor mother will have to explain it to him because of you. I know that because I am that mother

This language may well be an expression of extreme anxiety. Cubs may help this child become less anxious in social settings. The group, together, can do a helpful thing by just not mentioning it or making a big deal out of it. And that means children AND parents.

I know that because I am that mother

I am that mother too

The truest thing I ever read about children like ours is that NT people are all for inclusion and acceptance... until it inconveniences and/or offends them.

I don't think this is as simple as good parents will teach their dc to be okay with being sworn at.
My ds has ADHD and anxiety and he really would struggle with being sworn at.
Not because I haven't taught him that swearing isn't aggressive and only narrow minded people have an issue with it ( although I'll freely admit I haven't and wouldn't do that) but because his anxiety would be triggered by that type of behavior.
It should be possible to focus on what the triggers for the child who swears are and try and address those.
Rather than let that dc get stressed and sweary and other dc get upset.

I don't want him excluding from the group or even it mentioning to his mum.
Surely there is a way of establishing some boundaries and ground rules for all of the children in an inclusive way or at least validating the children who don't like being sworn at by saying 'actually no, it's not okay to speak to someone that way'.
I don't think we are doing children any favours if we don't at least try & point out that it's not acceptable. At some point they will be expected to conform to societal norms which include not calling people a pile of fucking shit. This is something they have to learn like everything else.

I'm not that mother and I'm not particularly inclusive. Ime experience the majority of nt people fall into the camps of getting it, or not worth educating. And I have zero intentions of conforming or making allowances for dull, narrow minded nt people that can't think outside their own experiences.

I just think it's sad that in the majority of cases other dc just accept most differences as normal until their overly precious parents convince them otherwise.

Who says that anybody has to (or can) conform to neurotypical social norms?

If your child is upset by being sworn at (which I understand), then you can support them with that.

Will your ‘quiet word’ be about your child then? And their need for help in developing empathy for others who find emotional regulation tough?

@TrainspottingWelsh

I'm not that mother and I'm not particularly inclusive. Ime experience the majority of nt people fall into the camps of getting it, or not worth educating. And I have zero intentions of conforming or making allowances for dull, narrow minded nt people that can't think outside their own experiences.

I just think it's sad that in the majority of cases other dc just accept most differences as normal until their overly precious parents convince them otherwise.

Yet you can't get why someone wouldn't like being sworn at Hmm yes let's all educate ourselves so that we can become enlightened like you

I think a potential issue with adults not stepping in to try and manage the situation more effectively is that the dc who don't like being sworn at will end up trying to manage the situation themselves.
That not only isn't fair on those dc it also isn't sensible for the dc who swears.
The dc are likely to either start ignoring the dc or start reacting back. Neither of those options are going to help the sweary dc regulate their emotions and feel more comfortable.

No, I genuinely can't, they're just fucking words, what cunt gives a shit?
I'm not particularly enlightened either, or I'd have more patience and understanding for some challenged nt people.

This is a child you're talking about. It appears they use different words to your dc to control a symptom of their condition. Just like some dc might use glasses, or a mobility aid, or an inhaler to control a symptom of a condition your dc might not share. And just like if your dc found it upsetting because another child shoved their hearing aid back in, or failed to control their stutter, or anything else that was completely harmless to your dc, the emphasis is on you, not the other child/ their parents/ group leaders to teach your child to cope with it.

@TrainspottingWelsh who days the OP has raised her child to be offended by swearing? I swear sometimes, both my DC have been raised in the same environment by the same parents but my DC2 absolutely hates it! He will always comment if he hears a swear word on TV and if one of us says something in earshot he’ll tell us to stop. He obviously had a lower tolerance. Is he a bit sensitive? IMO absolutely but he’s entitled to his opinion isn’t he? So we try not to swear at all around him as it makes him uncomfortable.

@FairiesWillFly the OPs DC isn’t intolerant because he’s voiced an opinion. He’s human. He doesn’t like swearing. Why should he have to put up with it if he doesn’t have to? If the child in question has control over his language he should exercise it in certain situations just like any of us would. If he can’t then that’s when tolerance is required

If there is nothing wrong with swearing why is it usually not allowed in schools/jobs etc. (I said usually)

If one child swears and one child is upset by swearing which child has to be taught tolerance more?

Same answer to you both. I have a close colleague that sometimes does things I don't like or even pisses me right off directly related to his neurodiversity, at other times they are more down to his individuality clashing with my nd or personality. And I know for a fact he feels the same about me at other times.

We don't play needs top trumps or run to management to ask them to set boundaries or other bullshit. We just compromise depending on which of us is in a position to, and don't take each other's symptoms as personal insults. If children lack the maturity/ life experience to do the same it's the parents job to guide them.

If one child swears and one child is upset by swearing which child has to be taught tolerance more?

The one who has a NT grasp of what is/isn't appropriate and a NT level of impulse control. The other child, the one who is not NT, needs support not punishment. The right support improves outcomes.

The top trumps method of sorting this out isn't a very mature response.
It is perfectly possible to end up with two ND dc, one who swears and one who struggles to cope with it.
It has got to be more productive to look at what the triggers for swearing are in this club and for an adult to step in an redirect activities so that dc don't end up getting sworn at.
It isn't okay for anyone to be sworn at, it isn't ok on this site or in RL situations like work.
The solution has to be to work with dc who needs other solutions than swearing at peers, maybe having somewhere go, maybe a specific activity causes problems etc.
It isn't a punishment to say that the current situation isn't working that well and new ways of tackling it need to be considered.