Page 5 | Would you still pay tax if you could get away with not paying it?

RationalOne · 08/10/2020 22:01

I value our health service, education for all, social care and a basic level of welfare state so people don't need to starve.

Greed is not nice. I would report her quite easily. Theft from society us still theft.

I'm glad there are decent people around.

Brot64 · 08/10/2020 22:02

@Sparklesocks I am far from annoyed. And I must add this is always the assumption on MN! I am merely stating an argument from my point of view. Yes indeed we are fortunate not to need government assistance and I am very much appreciative of that. However my question is what happens when those paying a significant amount in taxes can't do so anymore and need to rely on the government after all life happens.

To my minimal understanding you must use up all savings regardless of wealth as there's a cap. But for example in Germany, when you lose your job regardless of your income, for a period of time I believe at least a year (May not be accurate at it's been a while since I lived there) you get a huge percentage of your income over 50% because you have paid into the system. The same is not applicable to people who haven't paid into it however they do get a substantial amount that affords them a reasonable standard of living. However in the UK it seems not to matter. Therein lays my issue.

PinkSubmarine · 08/10/2020 22:05

Yes i would still pay tax, and I wish I was paying more now to have a better social state such as France or Scandinavia - better NHS, better schools, benefits, etc.

Brot64 · 08/10/2020 22:09

@jasjas1973 I am very much aware but such is the system! Do I think it's fair, no neither do I think it's equal. Would I still avoid tax if I can, yes. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is illegal and that's not what we are doing and neither is that the question. Would I feel guilty doing it, absolutely not, this is what the system allows and btw we are paying taxes in this country although we have offshore accounts for inheritance purposes and because we are foreign, my DH as a US citizen has to pay tax to the US no matter where he is in the world. I am not against paying taxes, I am against paying the amount we pay when people like amazon etc can get away with paying next to nothing.

Brot64 · 08/10/2020 22:13

And btw @jasjas1973 anything involving government contributions involved politics!

Jumpingkangeroo · 08/10/2020 22:15

@TeaLibrary

Struggling to think of a cash in hand job that earns that much money. Even if she isn't declaring it on self assessment surely her bank will have flagged the deposits as odd? Especially in large amounts

Seriously?!

Iamthewombat · 08/10/2020 22:16

Yes indeed we are fortunate not to need government assistance and I am very much appreciative of that. However my question is what happens when those paying a significant amount in taxes can't do so anymore and need to rely on the government after all life happens.

Once more, if you’ve got plenty of savings and investments you don’t ‘need to rely on the government’. If you have paid enough NI you get time limited JSA, after which you have to dig into your reserves. Why shouldn’t you?

To my minimal understanding you must use up all savings regardless of wealth as there's a cap. But for example in Germany, when you lose your job regardless of your income, for a period of time I believe at least a year (May not be accurate at it's been a while since I lived there) you get a huge percentage of your income over 50% because you have paid into the system. The same is not applicable to people who haven't paid into it however they do get a substantial amount that affords them a reasonable standard of living. However in the UK it seems not to matter. Therein lays my issue.

Yeah, your understanding is minimal all right. I’ll spell it out for you.

Taxes are much higher in Germany, so they can offer more support to people. All of this stuff is funded by ordinary people actually, you know, paying taxes. Which you seem extremely keen to wriggle out of wherever possible. Can you see the irony? No? Thought not.

Original poster

Uneasyy · 08/10/2020 22:21

Should’ve expected mumsnet to go all judgey when I mentioned the occupation
Yes I guess there is the overall issue of our taxes being spent in the wrong places and the big corporations failing to pay their way, but it doesn’t excuse tax evasion on an individual level

OP posts:

Iamthewombat · 08/10/2020 22:21

Would I still avoid tax if I can, yes. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is illegal and that's not what we are doing and neither is that the question. Would I feel guilty doing it, absolutely not, this is what the system allows

For somebody very keen on telling us what the questions should be, you are quick to reinterpret the OP’s question as soon as you realise that you have lost the argument, aren’t you?

You know quite well (I hope...not banking on it) that the OP wanted to know whether you would swerve taxes if you could because that’s what her friend does. I’d be careful with the old ‘tax evasion v tax avoidance are completely different and the latter is never illegal’ argument if I were you. There is more than one tax adviser on this thread, and that defence tends to blow up in the face of people with ‘minimal understanding’.

Don’t let that put you off though. @FlorrieMango and I will enjoy wiping the floor with you.

Brot64 · 08/10/2020 22:24

@Iamthewombat of course! But how much is JSA compared to what has been paid in taxes by higher tax payers? No the irony doesn't get to me sorry, I must be limited in that capacity despite having parents who greatly contribute in taxes in Germany, being a German National and knowing that input taxes made by average earners in Germany contribute significantly to the system. The facilities and accessibility to everything is non comparable to the UK.

But hey, you must know better and I appreciate your input. The answer is still no I wouldn't pay taxes if I could get away with it.

Iamthewombat · 08/10/2020 22:26

No the irony doesn't get to me sorry, I must be limited in that capacity despite having parents who greatly contribute in taxes in Germany

Is that how it works in Germany? The more tax your parents pay, the cleverer you become? No wonder your nation considers itself ‘Uber alles’!

GeorgeDavidson · 08/10/2020 22:26

Acct suggested we use tax ‘efficiency’ I.e. dodgy ways/ grey area to pay less. We told her to do one. She thought we were idiots, we thought she was a slime-ball who’s lost of perspective of her morals.
So yeah, I would because I don’t believe in two or three tiered society where I’m alright but other people aren’t.

Brot64 · 08/10/2020 22:29

@Iamthewombat haha my minimal understanding was in reference to benefits. I have nothing to hide and nothing that I or we are doing illegally so please let all the tax advisors come forward. I still stand with my answer that I wouldn't pay taxes if I didn't have to. The thing is that I/we are paying taxes but if I could get away with not paying them, I certainly wouldn't.

GeorgeDavidson · 08/10/2020 22:30

I know someone who’s an £2/3 knight ‘escort’ she had so much cash it became an issue for her ( people Are suspicious apparently when you try to by cars and flats in a cash, go figure...) so she basically went legit and is now an ‘entertainer’ and declares some income and pays tax.
Your friend could do that...
before anyone says she can’t be earning that amount, she is but is very ‘specialised’ in what she does.

Brot64 · 08/10/2020 22:31

@Iamthewombat not sure where the cleverness came into this but I will let you have it. This is how the system is build. Take your arguments to the people who built a system where tax avoidance is possible and legitimate.

Iamthewombat · 08/10/2020 22:32

Incidentally, if you are German and your husband is a US National you should tell us now whether you are Steffi Graf and whether Andre has adopted a combover.

Pyewhacket · 08/10/2020 22:33

I don't know about paying no tax but I knew somebody who had a substantial income, and I mean eye wateringly so, complete with extensive investments off-shore but who's tax liability was a maximum of 19% . And all perfectly legal.

Elsewyre · 08/10/2020 22:35

@Uneasyy

NC for this.

My lovely friend is currently making thousands a week in a cash-in-hand job.

She’s happy, genuinely happy and living her best life. However she dropped into conversation the other day that she got no grants/furlough or anything over lockdown as she’s never put anything through the system.

I didn’t really know how to feel. On one hand it’s none of my business whatsoever, on the other - This situation has made me scared for our economy and future prospects and it’s made me feel uneasy about her as a person.

She said she’d lose thousands through tax and it would be pretty impossible for her to get caught.

So I wonder, if were 100% sure you wouldn’t get caught, would you still choose to pay tax?

AIBU to think that I still would?

Shes fucked when shes older and has no pension.

Personally I'd qvoid VAT if I could as I disagree with it, but not worth the risk.

I happily pay income tax though as I support the reasons behind it, it's very hard to argue against funding a war with France.

Brot64 · 08/10/2020 22:37

@Iamthewombat was taking your arguments seriously and actually beginning to question myself until you went into that Steffi Graff nonsense. And yes I am indeed German and surprise surprise? No one even thinks of Steffi anymore no has she any relations to our taxes. So you are talking BS.

Iamthewombat · 08/10/2020 22:38

And all perfectly legal.

That’s what they told you. I bet if HMRC applied the letter of the tax legislation, including the anti-avoidance provisions, to this person’s financial arrangements, they might draw a different conclusion.

seayork2020 · 08/10/2020 22:41

So covid has to be paid, people want better schools, hospitals, unit should be free, better roads, living costs should come down everyone has something to complain about governments.

How is not paying tax going to help get the above?

FudgeBrownie2019 · 08/10/2020 22:43

DH and I are both higher-rate tax payers. I honestly don't begrudge a penny of it (except that the odd penny might go towards Cummings the shitweasel's salary because he needs a P45 and a kick in the throat). I believe if you're in the privileged position to earn enough to be a higher rate payer, you're in no position to complain.

I've no idea how so many people on Mumsnet can begin threads about the financial situation of others and speak with any real authority about them. Even my closest friends I'd only have a rough idea what they earn and what their money goes on/how it's saved. How do so many people know the exact details?

FeminismIsForALLWomen · 08/10/2020 22:43

I know someone who’s an £2/3 knight ‘escort’ she had so much cash it became an issue for her ( people Are suspicious apparently when you try to by cars and flats in a cash, go figure...) so she basically went legit and is now an ‘entertainer’ and declares some income and pays tax.
Your friend could do that...
before anyone says she can’t be earning that amount, she is but is very ‘specialised’ in what she does.

Well yes she could do that, but there is absolutely no need to be listed as an entertainer or another euphemism on a tax return. I was listed as a sex worker, and since selling sex is legal there was no legal need for me to hide it.

There is no need to 'go legit' because sex work is legitimate work.

If your friend wasn't paying her cash into her bank account or paying tax it's a separate issue to her status as a sex worker. Although the government and much of society like to pretend sex workers don't exist, and that sex work is a seedy hidden little world, HMRC will quite happily take our money so your friend doesn't need to worry about that.

LG101 · 08/10/2020 22:47

Depends if it’s legal. If I could reduce my tax or not pay it and it was 100% legal I would definitely look at it.

Tax avoidance no thank you. Morally wrong and I would be tempted to report

MasksGlovesSoapScrubs · 08/10/2020 22:55

Yes because although the majority of it goes to the council and pennies to the police, fire, Social services etc where would they be if we didn't pay?
I hope your friend never has to ask for the police, fire etc.
People like that boil my blood.