PIP assessment - are my educational achievements relevant?

[ejsmith99]

Mulling over my DLA to PIP telephone assessment and what I should and shouldn't have said. I was surprised to be asked about my qualifications, especially as I'm ancient. My first DLA application had to go to tribunal as the report basically said if I was intelligent enough to complete it I clearly wasn't ill. Since I'd spent 14 months under section on a psychiatric ward (with head teachers, doctors and shipbuilders amongst others) we successfully argued that there was a difference between intelligence and mental illness. No doubt they will turn me down, again, but it seems like I'm penalised for working hard when it was possible.

That is a standard question. Wait and see if they try to use it against you (they might) before getting upset. And please do go to tribunal again if they turn you down. Many many people are successful at tribunal. Good luck.

It shouldn't be relevant (unless you're currently studying and it contradicts what you're claiming for), but it may well be used against you. My assessor claimed that I had no problems with social interaction because I am a student. I'd clearly told her that I study with OU and as such have zero interaction with anyone else! My psychiatrist had confirmed this too. I didn't challenge it because I'd got the basic award and had no fight left to take it further, which is what they want isn't it.

I have a medical background and therefore use medical terminology when discussing my health condition. I felt that was very much held against me at my face to face interview. I said so at tribunal and they upheld my claim.

All such a bloody stress and hassle.

I've completed an application and 2 reviews for a relative with MH issues over the years. Never been asked about educational qualifications.

Their first claim was successful. Their 1st review then basically downgraded all Daily Living points and wiped out their Mobility points so we took it to a tribunal (one year of stress but won). I think, especially with it being about MH, that you experience far more difficulty with the claim if you are articulate, well-spoken and polite. It's as if they can't believe someone like that is incapable of functioning in their daily life. I stressed this to the panel at the tribunal and feel they understood.
IME, the DWP Assessors can't relate to others being ill if they are more well-spoken and educated than themselves.

This year it was reviewed again with a home visit just before lockdown. I was dreading it, based on past experience, but I think it helped them to have it at home. The award was for a much longer period than the last two.

Definitely take it to Mandatory Reconsideration and then tribunal if you feel unfairly marked down. So many win at tribunals.

If you can, sign up to www.benefitsandwork.co.uk (costs around £20 for a year) and you can access all their advice and materials on claiming ESA and PIP and keeping abreast of hows DWP are doing in respect of these. It's really helpful.

Many of the ATOS or Capita's questions sound quite innocuous, but then their assessors project and embellish a lot of information from that answer to make it sound like hard evidence that the claimant can do all sorts of things.

The education question on DD's assessor's report said things along the lines of 'Attended mainstream school and obtained these qualifications, therefore has no special needs, learning difficulties, communication difficulties or mobility issues'

Has a dog. (we don't this is from a friend's report) The assessor therefore assumes the claimant is in sole charge of the dog and says claimant has no mobility issues as dogs need 2 or more daily walks, claimant can bend to stroke and feed the dog, therefore claimant can do several tasks involving hand, arm, shoulder, back and torso mobility.

Wears a bra - assessor asks if it's a hook fastening one and asks if it's put on by fastening it at the front and spinning it round, or fastened directly at the back. Assessor then says the claimant can fasten it without difficulty therefore the claimant has no problem with flexibility in fingers, hands, wrists, arms, shoulders, torso and upper back.

The awful thing that follows on from all of that type of incorrect assumptions the assessors make is that the claimant then has to provide evidence to demonstrate that those assumptions are untrue.

I found it made me feel as though DD was treated like a liar which is a horrible situation to be in, because the DWP will back the assessors' assertions that the claimant is capable of many tasks, even in the face of contradictory written medical evidence from GPs and consultants, but thankfully the Tribunal panel which consists of a Judge, a Medical Expert and a Disability Expert are impartial and can get to the truth.

It's a horrible system, but stick with it and do go all the way to Tribunal if you need to.

It makes me feel ill that we have a system for disability benefits founded on disability discrimination. It's a national disgrace.

The education question on DD's assessor's report said things along the lines of 'Attended mainstream school and obtained these qualifications, therefore has no special needs, learning difficulties, communication difficulties or mobility issues'

Sounds similar to the way they went with my DD. The fact she got three good exam results apparently showed that she had no difficulties in school, her narcolepsy hadn't impacted her at all.

Totally ignored the shortened timetable, the special things put in place for her, and, to be frank, the absolutely amazing efforts put in by the teachers of said three subjects, all of whom gave up some of their own time to help her with missed things, and just said "She got B's, there's nothing wrong with her".

I'd advise anyone dealing with PIP to see appealling as just a general part of the process. That way if you get a result sooner it's a bonus, rather than appeal being the surprise.

It would only be relevant if quite recent as that would denote a level of cognitive ability in relation to a couple of the criteria.

To qualify for PIP you need to be able to demonstrate that your condition impacts your functional ability on the majority of days so unfortunately even if the impact is severe, if its only once a month e.g a seizure, then it's difficult to pass for that.

Bloody hell. I can't believe they suggested that people who have been high achievers academically can't have mental health problems preventing them from working. Ridiculous.

@HandfulofDust you can get PIP and still work full time

I was asked if i took medication for my autism 🤔

Having qualifications may mean that you don't get awarded points for some of the cognitive descriptors (reading and verbal communication immediately spring to mind).

However, you may have used aids/adaptations or had help from a signer, in which case at least 2 points should be awarded. If you didn't explain that you have that help or use that aid, it's legitimate for them not to award you those points, but that could easily be challenged at mandatory reconsideration by pointing that out and explaining that the assessor didn't actually ask if had help with those things.

If you haven't already, check out the descriptors and see what points you feel you should be awarded for each one. Bear in mind that if you can't do something repeatedly, safely, to an acceptable standard and in a reasonable amount of time, then you can't do it. So, if you can understand written material but it takes you a long time to comprehend what you read, you get points.

Descriptors are here www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/Migrated_Documents/adviceguide/pip-9-table-of-activities-descriptors-and-points.pdf

Don't be put off if you get turned down initially. Over 80% of appeals succeed. The team I work in has an appeal success rate of over 90%, so a hell of a lot of people are wrongly refused PIP.

I'd advise anyone dealing with PIP to see appealling as just a general part of the process

That's very much how I see it.

They swear blind there are no quotas for awarding PIP, but when people get awarded zero points initially and then get the enhanced rate of both elements at appeal, it makes you wonder. Especially when the grounds of appeal are essentially the same as the words used on the application form, and the same supporting evidence has been submitted.

@MindfulMouse

To qualify for PIP you need to be able to demonstrate that your condition impacts your functional ability on the majority of days so unfortunately even if the impact is severe, if its only once a month e.g a seizure, then it's difficult to pass for that.

If a person has a disability or illness that could mean that an adverse event could arise unexpectedly at any point during any day, and thus they need constant prompting, supervision or monitoring, then the risk is present 'on most of the days'.

It just needs spelling out on the PIP2 and during the assessment.

Risk. Impact. Safety. Reliability.

Yep, this happened to my mate - she was a nursing sister, has a Masters in business then developed PTSD from sexual abuse. They said she can't be mentally ill as she has her degree. Never mind she has been deteriorating for the past decade or more, is permanently incapacitated from working as a nurse as a result of that and physical disabilities.

They said she walked intimate the room and it unaided with her handbag swinging in one arm. Her mum carried the bag, she went in on her crutches.

They said she maintained good eye contact so didn't have depression or PTSD. She had had her hair washed, so could clean herself etc.

They twist everything beyond the context in which it is said or seen.

With PIP, record everything. Never ever have a face to face interview without it being recorded. Take a witness with you to everything.

I am not being paranoid, we've just won her appeal. She's been on the bones of her arse, unable to afford to eat during lockdown, and just had an 18mth back payment. Wankers.

If a person has a disability or illness that could mean that an adverse event could arise unexpectedly at any point during any day, and thus they need constant prompting, supervision or monitoring, then the risk is present 'on most of the days'.

It just needs spelling out on the PIP2 and during the assessment.

Risk. Impact. Safety. Reliability.

My DD has narcolepsy. There was a woman in the support group she attends who was turned down on the basis that her condition is "predictably unpredictable".

The tribunal judge went to town on the DWP rep that turned up for her appeal.

One of my friends gets PIP, she’s got a masters and numerous POst grad qualifications. She also works full time. She can’t walk very far without being in pain because of fibromyalgia and they accepted that. She lives by herself and does all her own cooking and cleaning, dresses and washes herself and is rarely off sick. I’m surprised she got it when I know so many people who have been turned down.

Another source of help with your claim is www.fighback4justice.co.uk. They are often on FB announcing that they've helped people win the awards they were entitled to in the first place. I had my own personal battles with Atos 7 years ago, and nearly took my own life due to the stressful position they put me in. I went to Citizens Advice for assistance after they turned down my appeal, and they suggested that both my husband and myself kept a diary of every single thing that affected me each day. I did that, then went to Court for the Tribunal, only to be told that they'd been trying to reach me to tell me not to bother travelling, as they'd already found in my favour just by reading the information I provided in the first place!!

I have since claimed for PIP, and dealt with the system in a whole different way. My problems are mobility based, and after putting myself through agony on several occasions with my first battle, in order to attend buildings which were wholly unsuitable for someone with a physical disability, this time, I requested that my interview should be held at home. My husband was present at all times, and we didn't make the mistake of thinking that the assessor could be trusted for one minute. I received enhanced PIP without any problem!

Well ds took seven from 100 at his assessment and they concluded he had no learning difficulties no communication difficulties, could manage finances and whatever else they thought of. Any other difficulties were banished because he likes to play computer games. At Tribunal the panel tore strips off DWP and reinstated HR daily living and mobility pointing out they had already established he needed an appointee because he couldn't manage his own affairs and had limited communication and being able to answer one sum didn't alter that.

Just a note to say that you aren't allowed to (secretly) record your face to face assessment or tribunal. The only (permitted) way to record an assessment is a complicated process with a recorder that makes 2 copies so you can give one to them too - and I think it needs agreeing in advance. Current telephone tribunals can't be recorded at all - it is illegal.

You are of course right earlydoors42, but doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about the process, ie, they don't want things recorded, because then they can lie about the claimant's situation. It's an absolute outrage if you ask me, after all, you see on TV the police take 2 recordings of interviews, to protect both them and the prisoner, so why not Atos or Capita??

This is so short sighted. Unless you’ve given a learning disability diagnosis as part of the picture (which you clearly haven’t) this is so ignorant. I’m sorry people are so bloody ignorant and the system is failing you. Even getting mental health support is difficult if you articulate your symptoms as opposed to display them to be observed on cue.

Thanks everyone, I was assuming that a MC then a tribunal will be necessary. Unfortunately due to Covid they are running way behind and online only, which will mean months living on £60 a week. I kept parroting the "safely, reliably and repetively" mantra where his assumptions about my capabilities were clearly "optimistic". I just hate the whole process, having to answer all the questions about things I can't do just brought it home what a limited life I live. I totally understand the need for assessment, it is public money, but why not start with an assessor with specialist knowledge and taking into account the reports from clinicians that work with me rather than wasting money by having it go to tribunal?

@Pembsgirl yes I agree. I was just saying it so nobody gets in trouble recording when not allowed.

OP if it helps, more people are getting through at the moment without going to tribunal. I work for the tribunals service and we are now catching up the backlog and may end up with no work to do! (& we only get paid for days worked....) So this is good for you for 2 reasons - a) more chance of getting PIP at the moment and b) shorter wait for tribunal if needed