To think men need to be more responsible for problems occurring in childbirth

[TheExecutionOfAllThings]

I’ve seen many posts on here saying that a woman has had physical injuries after childbirth and can’t/ doesn’t have the urge for penetrative sex anymore - and therefore the man is unfulfilled and wants to pursue another relationship.

On the one hand, I don’t think anyone should have a sexless marriage/relationship if it doesn’t suit them - but on the other hand, there’s something really unpleasant about a woman going through a horrific birth that means she can no longer have penetrative sex either physically or mentally and the man being free to just leave if it no longer suits.

It feels cruel and inhumane that a woman can end up with significant injuries when the man agreed (possibly indirectly) to the risk beforehand, but he can just walk away.

Childbirth, despite being as old as humankind, is only ever one parties responsibility - during birth and after (CMS a poor account for responsibility).

I’m not necessarily suggesting that men should stay in a relationship than leaves then unfulfilled if they can’t have sex - but there’s something really inhumane and unfair that the woman is equally as unfulfilled but can’t fix it and there’s no means for her to move on - when the decision that broke her was mutual. The man on the other hand can enjoy the spoils of childbirth if he wishes, but can rid his hands of the mother.

I don’t know what the answer is at all - do we make it compulsory that men always have 50/50 care when doing an act that could result in children (and possibly at that detriment to said children)? Do we cause equal harm to the man who has fathered a child with a woman who has suffered injury (very inhumane). Do we force compulsory relationships once a child is born or pregnant (absolutely horrific for all parties).

All terrible choices - but I do think there needs to be more accountability towards the man if a woman suffers injuries in a joint decision to have sex that may result in a child being born - especially in situations where the man has already committed through marriage ‘in sickness and health’ and all that.

@RunningFromInsanity

I think the benefit for women being the one at risk during childbirth is that they mostly get the say in how the child is raised. Most of the time they are awarded the main caregiver in custody battles, especially when the child is still a baby. Men are pretty pushed out of child raising on the whole.

In another post, men are allowed to walk away and not sign certificate, but the mother will always be on it, even if she does sign, they can get a witness to sign.

People can complain about equality all they like but biologically only woman can have a baby (I am sure there will be some link to some research paper that states different), both men and women should be able to leave a relationship anytime they want.

I am not sure what else can actually be said on this other than it is up to individuals when they have sex or not (speaking consentually) but also people should own their thoughts and decisions and not blame the other person on those thoughts/decisions.

On a kind of relevant note (I can tie it in).

I am very into spirituality. I have read lots of books about reincarnation. And I firmly believe that we come back again.

This week, I have been feeling annoyed about how much easier men have it than women. Two things made me think that: I have very painful periods, and on my fifth day of being in pain, I was cursing the unfairness of women going through this, and men not.

I was also talking to a man this week who said to me "the. the male body is so much better designed, women are always in pain".

Then I read threads on here, which show that women go through so much more painful things,: childbirth, not much respect for childbirth, and this awful thread which shows that even if women are injured after birth, men will demand sex.

Women go through a lot more painful and awful things.

Yet when I was reading the book about reincarnation this week, I thought if I had the choice to come back as a woman or a man next life, what would I come back as, and I thought "I would want to be a woman". Women fit a lot more into their lives, yes it is more of a struggle at times, but we achieve a lot more, it is a more challenging and more detailed life.

So whenever I think of the unfairness that women go through, I think that if I could choose to be any gender next life, I would still choose to be a woman

As PP have said, biologically, women will always bear the risks of injury during birth. There's not much you can do about that.

What if a woman is injured in some other way (not related to birthing) and her husband wants to leave her because that injury has changed her sex drive (or her ability to do other things, her mood, or so on)? Or a woman might want to leave her husband after he's been in an accident and is similarly "altered".

You can split hairs and say that leaving someone because of injuries they sustained bringing your child into the world is worse than leaving for some other reason, but the results are the same.

The answer is for couples to love and value one another. "In sickness and in health" puts it pretty clearly. Either you live by that code or you don't.

Also, as a PP said, sex isn't a physical necessity, and there are ways around most problems. If you can't do one thing, you can do another.

OP your messages are an incoherent mess.
What exactly is your point?
That women have children? Well dhhh..
That men should recognise that women have children? Well double dhhh...

The general reason why men are treating women like shit in this generation, is because women are so powerful, and are in fact much more powerful than men.

Men have implemented many tricks to make women forget their power by

1. Starting religions which told women that they were inferior
2. Making science very dominant and male energy based, making women forget their important power of intution
3. By disrespecting childbirth
4. by shaming women and making women forget the very important power of menstruation
5. By degrading women in porn
6. By keeping women out of politics.
7. by shaming women if they do not have children

Men have done all these things to make women forget who they really are: incredibly powerful beings. Remember how powerful you are, and all of those systems of abuse will start to change. When one woman remembers how powerful she is, it will help all women to be more free

I think that there is not enough education or knowledge on the reality of it. Before I had a baby I had no idea that anything more than a few stitches might be required and whilst that sounded painful there was never any warning of what MIGHT happen to your body afterwards and I think that’s because pregnancy is seen as something women should just get on with because it’s “natural and normal”.

It’s not taken seriously by the NHS or the medical profession in general because we read time and time again about little or no support for women who are suffering the after effects of childbearing. I mean, they chuck you out after a c section with paracetamol when you have had major abdominal surgery but if you have any other sort of surgery in this area you get sent home with decent pain medication and that’s just a small and basic right.

During childbirth I have experienced a retained placenta, massive blood loss, stitches and five years of PTSD with one and a c section with the other. I had very little support for any of that.

Luckily I have no physical issues now but many many women have but how many expected it? If we don’t know men certainly won’t know and this really needs to be detailed at some point during pregnancy or even before.

@LeSquigh

I think that there is not enough education or knowledge on the reality of it. Before I had a baby I had no idea that anything more than a few stitches might be required and whilst that sounded painful there was never any warning of what MIGHT happen to your body afterwards and I think that’s because pregnancy is seen as something women should just get on with because it’s “natural and normal”.

It’s not taken seriously by the NHS or the medical profession in general because we read time and time again about little or no support for women who are suffering the after effects of childbearing. I mean, they chuck you out after a c section with paracetamol when you have had major abdominal surgery but if you have any other sort of surgery in this area you get sent home with decent pain medication and that’s just a small and basic right.

During childbirth I have experienced a retained placenta, massive blood loss, stitches and five years of PTSD with one and a c section with the other. I had very little support for any of that.

Luckily I have no physical issues now but many many women have but how many expected it? If we don’t know men certainly won’t know and this really needs to be detailed at some point during pregnancy or even before.

I think this is something that actually used to be more recognised. But it was supressed - maybe unconciously - because people wanted to say and believe that women weren't physically disadvantaged compared to men, particularly in the workforce, by having kids. This used to be well understood and while in some cases it was used to remind people to look out for women, in others it was used to justify shutting them out.

You see similar things with people no longer accommodating young women's issues with menstruation in sports, or how many people don't realise the long term effect pregnancy and breastfeeding may have on libido. In an effort to free women from what were supposedly stereotypes, we've forgotten that these physical aspects of being female are real. Until we are faced with them and find ourselves surprised, dismayed, shocked, and often isolated and with little support.

@TheExecutionOfAllThings

Actually, despite being seriously inhumane, this point is pertinent:

Do we cause equal harm to the man who has fathered a child with a woman who has suffered injury (very inhumane).

If men had a risk of harm too, would they even consider children? And if they did have a risk of a harm, would they equally accept that a woman was free to walk away afterwards?

I suspect then every man would just be opting for abortion at the first sign of pregnancy?

Equal risk, equal say right?

Don't vow to be with someone in sickness and in health if you won't actually be there in sickness.

There is huge pressure on women to achieve a perfect natural birth. I understand why women wanted to reclaim birth from its over medicalisation and there was (and is) a lot that is positive about that.

But the flipside is that when things don't go to plan, we are left blaming ourselves for having failed. I remember trying so hard to avoid pain relief and eventually after 24 hours I just couldn't go on. Eight hours after that I ended up with an emcs. I hated myself, I hated the failure, I hated that I hadn't experienced birth. It's 14 years ago and I still have pain and my CS wound has never fully healed. I remember my husband taking my hand afterwards and saying 'why did you do that to yourself? No man would try to go through labour without pain relief if we were the ones having the babies, why do women feel they have to?'. And the answer was that I felt obliged. By society, by the medical profession, by other women, by the media. Around that time there had been a lot of stories in the media implying that women needing pain relief in labour was a drain on NHS resources and that epidurals should be charged for. At the time I felt guilty. Now I just feel furious. Pain relief for men is a basic human right. For women it's a drain on society.

Men don't bear the responsibility- as per your title - and the fact that they're free to walk, at any time, is well, a fact, and also how it should be: who would want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with them?

Women are not adequately supported once they become mothers and that is a social issue. Not a DP issue. Society is set up based on a system that favours a "1950s" type of family situation. And that's one that clearly didn't consider women's life experiences as equal.

The situation is highlighted when a woman has serious birthing injuries and subsequent symptoms, but the unequal weighting to issues around women's and mother's lives is socially constant. It impacts all women, but is exacerbated after becoming a mother. Unless the woman is independently wealthy. There's a softening then.

If we want to address the imbalance then the state of being pregnant and act of giving birth need to be held in some sort of positive regard. Not simply "women get pregnant every day and give birth every day, what's the big deal?". And that means that women's experiences, the ones men can never have, have to be held in equal regard - at least - to the experiences men have. We have equality in law, but not in practice and part of that is down to the constant down playing of women's experiences.

Can you imagine how different society would be if men gave birth?

So yes, men are free to leave, but the issue is about the inherent disregard of women's lives that makes availability of services to help women after they've given birth so unimportant. Until women's suffering becomes a serious enough issue to warrant the significant investment required to reduce/alleviate it (and I include stress in continence here - no way would that be acceptable if men suffered it on such a huge scale, especially when still young) mothers will continue to be at the bottom of the pile. Until the idea that "you're alive/you're baby's alive, you're lucky" is replaced with top notch investment, research and perinatal care, the imbalance will remain. And those things won't happen if women's experiences are not considered important enough to warrant the investment.

@caughtalightsneeze

There is huge pressure on women to achieve a perfect natural birth. I understand why women wanted to reclaim birth from its over medicalisation and there was (and is) a lot that is positive about that.

But the flipside is that when things don't go to plan, we are left blaming ourselves for having failed. I remember trying so hard to avoid pain relief and eventually after 24 hours I just couldn't go on. Eight hours after that I ended up with an emcs. I hated myself, I hated the failure, I hated that I hadn't experienced birth. It's 14 years ago and I still have pain and my CS wound has never fully healed. I remember my husband taking my hand afterwards and saying 'why did you do that to yourself? No man would try to go through labour without pain relief if we were the ones having the babies, why do women feel they have to?'. And the answer was that I felt obliged. By society, by the medical profession, by other women, by the media. Around that time there had been a lot of stories in the media implying that women needing pain relief in labour was a drain on NHS resources and that epidurals should be charged for. At the time I felt guilty. Now I just feel furious. Pain relief for men is a basic human right. For women it's a drain on society.

You may have felt obliged but when I was pregnant at my midwife appointments they went through my green form (well my one was a green form) and I was asked about pain relief I asked them to mark me down for an epidural, I had one then went home the next day.

Sure a million and one things could have gone wrong with the epidural or not or any else with the my pregnancy and birth but I was the pregnant one so with the Midwife and my husband when I asked him if I felt the need I decided what I wanted not the media or society.

I owned my decision to have an epidural as my choice (mind you don't actually think of it unless the subject comes up in a forum/discussion)

@BubblyBarbara - you are one of the most small-minded, judgemental people I have ever come across on here. You honestly, honestly believe that only Christians who have been married in a religious ceremony should be able to have sex and have children? You think that all religious marriages are happy, faithful and everlasting and the only 'safe' environment in which to bring up children?
The next head of the Church of England had extra-marital sex and is a divorcee. How does that fit in with your judgemental view? How very Christian of you.

But it's also the case and harped on about all over MN that it's a woman's body and therefore her right to choose whether to continue a pregnancy knowing the risk or not - it doesn't matter if she is married, in a loving relationship etc - according to MN law a man has no say in her pregnancy. Therefore a man is not equally responsible for problems occurring in child birth - you can't have it both ways 🤷‍♀️

A close friend suffered from horrific birth injuries that required multiple operations to fix, she's been left in almost constant pain, is doubly incontinent and due to scar tissue penetrative sex is extremely painful.
Her husband left, he hadn't signed up for a sexless marriage to a woman who couldn't hold her own bowel movements in.
It seems very unfair that he gets to walk away from that situation and she does not. But I really don't know what the answer is other than better understanding of birth injuries, better medical care to prevent them and better aftercare to fix them without having to have a fight to get the right treatment.

It's all irrelevant. If one partner is so unhappy because something is missing in their life that they physiologically can't do without, they have a right to leave.

There are many scenarios when the opposite occurs and one could say that the woman had taken a risk by being in a long term relationship with her partner.

Thankfully instances of women having a fulfilling sexual life prior to birth but can never resume any sexual relations with anyone are rare.

I agree with the sentiment OP. However I cant see a practical solution. Also issues of often in a relationship one person wants children a lot more than the other. Also often lack of sex is caused by complicated factors that isnt due solely to birth injury and people don't know how they are going to react to being parents and how they're going to feel about sex.
Lastly there is a massive lack of knowledge about the risks of birth injury, I know the majority of women tear but there were no stats routinely given about the chances of long term pain, incontinence etc.

I do think its vile when men are pressuring women to have sex when it leaves them in pain because 'they have needs' - they don't, they have a 'want' that shouldn't trump their partners comfort. So in some cases leaving is probably better than coerced pressured painful sex

I think men can help themselves and their wives a bit with the whole thing.

Be your wife's advocate. Speak up if something seems off when she's in too much pain or too exhausted to do so herself.

I think being a bit more supportive with the kid is important. Don't just shrug and say that she's breastfeeding so you can't do anything.

Dont think your contribution runs out at "letting" her have a bath then claimimg you end your sleep as you are back at work a few days later.

No one should stay in an unfulfilled relationship out of obligation that would lead to resentment. Same with sex. Do not feel obliged to have it just to "keep" them.

But the biggest help would be sorting out maternity care. Men would never be left to labour for 48 hours then have the baby yanked out witg forceps.

Nor would men ever be left to recover from a c section on paracetamol.

Having another think about this, if men had to suffer the repercussions of childbirth that would mean they had equal say in things like epidurals, c-sections etc during labour too as it would effect them as well.

This, totally.

Blasted reply fail!

Sorry, this post doesn't make any sense to me. You are focusing on childbirth and men vs women but how is it different from:

• I ask my husband to come pick me up somewhere by car and he has a car accident on the way with severe lifelong consequences. (men are more likely to be the only driver in a couple)
• Men are more likely to do all the heavy lifting tasks at home, for things that both members of the couple want done, they could get a back injury.

Or are you saying that the difference is that in childbirth there is no choice as to who performs the task vs in my examples there is one - even though it is very often the man who does it?

Regardless, I disagree, the woman makes the decision of having sex / having a child knowing what it could mean for her body. The fact that it benefits someone else as well doesn't mean she isn't aware that such consequences would be hers only.

Slightly off topic but wondering how things have changed. My first baby was born in 1970, you did what your were told, most hospitals didn't let men attend the birth, enema and shaving absolutely standard and episiotomies seemed to be pretty well standard as well. Obviously lots has changed and most of it good. I found the shave and enema more traumatic than the birth to be honest. Personally I wasn't that bothered about having partner with me but for lots of women it is a positive that it can happen (I know not always so at the moment in these "unprecedented" times) although I did resent with me last child that the midwife pushed me to have husband present when I wanted him at home with other child.

I know it is more common to have a CS now, when I had my first in a ward of 24 there was 1 section, when I had my last they seemed more common that not.

Are there any statistics for episiotomies and tears? I really didn't want a 2nd episiotomy as I had problem with stitches and I was promised it was a last resort, I know my GP tried really hard as did the midwife but I did have an episiotomy. I'm not saying episiotomies are a great thing but have they reduced and 4th degree tears increased? When I had my first lots of us moaned about episiotomies and stitches but I can't remember anyone with a tear.

@ancientgran episiotomies were found to cause more severe tears, that's why they do them less often. They are only supposed to do them now if necessary e.g. to make space for forceps.
There are still more severe tears than previously though - probably largely due to women being older when they have their first baby and also there are more obese women.