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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To want to scream at the man at playgroup this morning that he is a rude ignorant slug (serious speech development issue in here somewhere)

37 replies

lucyellensmum · 10/10/2007 15:48

OK. There was a new man a play group this morning, great, love men, love new people me. He seemed very nice, obviously intelligent and into his son, quite old i guess.

The organiser of the group was asking for suggestios for our weekly activities. Two of the mums happen to work at SN schools and are trained in Makaton signs. They said they would be happy to do a sing and sign session one week. Great i thought, DD will love it as we use this to help with her speech delay. This guy pipes up and says he has a problem with signing as it is thought to interfere with their verbal development. Now he was clearly intelligent so i naturally thought i would enter into a conversation about it. I said, "oh, dd has speech delay and signing has been a great help to her really brought her on", because it has and because i had the same concerns about this and have voiced them to our SALT. He ignored me so i assumed he didnt hear, but i then repeated but he gave me such a dour look as if he was thinking "stupid cow doesnt have a clue" the thing is, i think my opinion is valid as a mother of a child who has clearly benefitted from signing and a woman with an understanding of how learning and memory works as I have a PhD in neuronal development (but not in this area of development so my knowledge of this is fairly basic). I just thought how rude and condescending can you be. When the poor lass who organises the group said, well if everyuone isnt happy then we wont do that, he said, "oh it doen't matter, we wont be here!" ARSEHOLE!!!! He obviously isnt used to being challenged, and didnt know how to handle it, i wasnt picking an argument and i wasnt saying he was wrong, i just thought, oh here is an opportunity for an interesting conversation that goes beyond small talk. This particular play group is run by homestart so maybe he just assumed we are all mums with problems and therefore must be stupid, but this is actually a group that is run as a general playgroup for every one in our local are. I was so shocked my his rudeness that i couldnt speak. Hopefully he wont come back as he clearly thinks he is above all that - honestly, im sooooo i could spit! This is not a man issue, i love it when men come to playgroups as they tend to provide a real balance and are just as entitled to be there as mums.

OP posts:

maisemor · 10/10/2007 15:52

Sounds like he was looking for an opportunity to show off, and you showed him up .

dustystar · 10/10/2007 15:53

{angry] stupid man

Next time point out to him that evidence from research in this area is mixed anyway and it is by no means certain that learning to sign inhibits the development of speech - some studies have actually found that it facilitates it.

Tommy · 10/10/2007 16:02

that's what happens when you let the men into the playgroup.......

ruty · 10/10/2007 16:06

when he said 'oh we won't be here' I would have told him it was his loss TBH! Twit.

EmsMum · 10/10/2007 16:09

YABU to want to scream.

You should have signed. Universal FU symbol.

Carmenere · 10/10/2007 16:10

He sounds like a man used to his word being taken as law FFS - eedjit!

Original poster

lucyellensmum · 10/10/2007 16:11

lol - now now tommy, we dont want to go there

Apparently we learn by association, so if we associate and orange with the sign for orange and the word orange (at the same time) these things re-enforce each other and are more likely to be remembered. My daughter has always used the words along with the sign, yes the sign comes first but only in the first short instance.

If he comes next week i'll try and give him a few pointers about how to fit in at M&T, as the advice given on MN has really helped me, it only seems fair to point it on. I'll make a point of finding out what toaster he has and how he rates it.

OP posts:

Journey · 10/10/2007 16:12

Your opinion was extremely valid. My son has speech delay. Last week I went along to his speech therapy session and I was amazed at how useful Makaton signs can be. It really helps him.

Niecie · 10/10/2007 16:14

He sounds like an ignorant pig tbh but trying to give a balanced argument, I wonder if he was on of those people who handles a new situation by being overbearing and trying to make his mark. Maybe if he did come back and was able to relax a bit he might be a little less abrasive. Shyness can affect people in different way.

Either that or he was actually the author of some research on how signing didn't help children develop language.

Seriously, I would have liked to have a conversation about this. People on MN seem very pro Makatron and I know it helps children with speech delay or SN but I have wondered myself whether it is of benefit to the average child. I assumed that it was but it is interesting to hear that the evidence may not be conclusive.

Anyway, in your shoes I would be hoping he did come back so I could engage him in conversation and find out exactly why he was so anti.

But in answer to your question and his rudeness YANBU.

3andnogore · 10/10/2007 16:17

God...he sounds a complete twat....and he was extremely rude
He obvioulsy doens't know as much about stuff as he thinks he does ...like they say a little knowledge can be more dangerous then none...

Original poster

lucyellensmum · 10/10/2007 16:22

Niecie, i think that if it can help children with speech delay it could possibly be of help to the average child, i think it simply relates to the time at which it is taught. Apparently it works really well for young babies (about 8 months). Maybe for a two year old with average to advanced speech it may well not be necessary and it would be difficult to quantify the improvement in a child who is already speaking in sentences. I certainly don't think it does any harm. I do realise opinion is split over this which is why i was genuinely interested in this guys point of view. I am usually very skeptical about parenting fads and without my personal experience i may have felt the same as him, but i can promise you, it works.

OP posts:

LilBloodRedWantsGore · 10/10/2007 16:25

Niece - DD is almost 17 months old and has no SN but she does some sign and often signs to let me know she's hungry or tired. It's great and saves on the frustration before DD can say the words.

ruty · 10/10/2007 16:37

i would be very proud of my ds if he could communicate with somebody who uses Makaton as an important means of communication. It can only enhance his understanding of other people and children.

3andnogore · 10/10/2007 16:43

Niecie, it most defiantely has benefits to any childs speech developelement...it can cut out many tantrums they often have because of frustration due to communication problems...and also, it helps to make brainconnections that help speech developement along...doesn't have to be makaton, Babysigning, which is generally based on Brittish sign language, just much more simplyfied is good!
I used a Sing and Sign DVD and ms and I both liked it, sadly ys never really took to it that much...

Niecie · 10/10/2007 17:59

Thank you everybody. I first heard of baby signing when I did my child development course at the OU 7 years ago and we had a brief debate about its usefulness. My gut feeling is that it would slow up speech as the child wouldn't have to make the effort if they could make themselves understood by signing. Maybe I am lucky but I never felt the need to try it out when my boys were babies (maybe they should have been my guinea pigs) so it is interesting to hear where the debate has got to. Sounds like I am wrong about it though.

Sorry, this has been a bit of a hijack. I am back to studying cognition again next month so this kind of thing is in the forefront of my mind at the moment.

Still think Mr Arsehole was rude though and shouldn't make assumptions on anybody else's ability to hold a debate. Shame he is not coming back so you can find out if it is first time nerves or a deep rooted personality flaw that makes him think he is always right.

edam · 10/10/2007 18:09

Anecdotal but my NT niece did baby signing and was an early talker. Didn't affect her desire to talk at all, just gave her the ability to make her needs understood when she was too little to talk.

Of course, the first sign she learnt was 'NO'! (Amazing how emphatic a baby can be in sign language.)

3andnogore · 10/10/2007 18:12

I remember some opposition from my HV (well teh one where I had ms) and then it came out that appanrelty a hearing family that was trained to do Sign language had taught their child sign language but wihtout talking much to the child...so, that was why they were so negative about it, as that obviously isn't a good idea...Babysigning should be done simple and always speaking and signing the words you want to sign at teh same time...

Original poster

lucyellensmum · 10/10/2007 18:18

There is also the added advantage of the secret code. I mean, when Mr pissface was being all arrogant this morning, i was able to sign to my dd "corr, what an idiot" to which she signed back "yeah, i bet he has a big red car and a little weener!!" and he didnt have a clue!!! Seriously though, its really sweet to have these little signs between us, her speech isnt clear yet so i feel as if we have our own secret language

OP posts:

ruty · 10/10/2007 19:07

moondog · 10/10/2007 19:11

What a knob.

I am a salt,use a lot of signing and also have my own baby signing business.

I am about to embark on my MSc research project which involves signing so I know my stuff.

IT DOES NOT IMPEDE SPEECH DEVELOPMENT. IT AIDS IT.

Boot him up the arse from me next time yuo see him.

Original poster

lucyellensmum · 10/10/2007 20:07

Thanks for that moondog, i think signing is wonderful, and i was just interested as to why he thought it wasnt. I will make sure i'm wearing boots next week to carry out your request.

Good luck with the MSc.

OP posts:

callmeovercautious · 10/10/2007 20:17

Obviously not that intelligent was he! I believe that social skills are far more important than academic intelligence in groups like this. Hopefully for you he won't come back, and if he does engage him in conversation about it and see where he got his facts from.

BTW - DD is 13 m and says the most amazing amount of words - all things I started as signs from about 7/8m. It tends to be just with me and DP (as we are the ones that sign to her) but I am convinced that it was the signs that helped her learn to say the words.

We are about to start on some new words so hopefully the progress will continue!

Oh and sing and sign is FUN! Just look at Steps

ChantillyLace · 10/10/2007 20:19

Interesting thread. I've got a couple of friends whose children have used signs and it has delayed their speech terribly! Both of them were told to stop signing and use only speech. All my girls were very early talkers and never signed so I have never had any experience.

Nice to hear the other side of the story from people that have lived it.

Niecie · 10/10/2007 20:48

Does anybody think the mistake would be that people stop talking, or stop talking as much, whilst they are doing the signing and so the child doesn't pick up the speech? I mean in the cases where signing has had a detrimental effect on speech as a couple of you are saying.

harpsicorpsecarrier · 10/10/2007 20:50

he sounds like a total arse he might have few issues.
even if you do believe signing delays speech development (and ime the opposite is true) one short session of signing is hardly going to make a difference!

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