To want to scream at the man at playgroup this morning that he is a rude ignorant slug (serious speech development issue in here somewhere)

[lucyellensmum]

OK. There was a new man a play group this morning, great, love men, love new people me. He seemed very nice, obviously intelligent and into his son, quite old i guess.

The organiser of the group was asking for suggestios for our weekly activities. Two of the mums happen to work at SN schools and are trained in Makaton signs. They said they would be happy to do a sing and sign session one week. Great i thought, DD will love it as we use this to help with her speech delay. This guy pipes up and says he has a problem with signing as it is thought to interfere with their verbal development. Now he was clearly intelligent so i naturally thought i would enter into a conversation about it. I said, "oh, dd has speech delay and signing has been a great help to her really brought her on", because it has and because i had the same concerns about this and have voiced them to our SALT. He ignored me so i assumed he didnt hear, but i then repeated but he gave me such a dour look as if he was thinking "stupid cow doesnt have a clue" the thing is, i think my opinion is valid as a mother of a child who has clearly benefitted from signing and a woman with an understanding of how learning and memory works as I have a PhD in neuronal development (but not in this area of development so my knowledge of this is fairly basic). I just thought how rude and condescending can you be. When the poor lass who organises the group said, well if everyuone isnt happy then we wont do that, he said, "oh it doen't matter, we wont be here!" ARSEHOLE!!!! He obviously isnt used to being challenged, and didnt know how to handle it, i wasnt picking an argument and i wasnt saying he was wrong, i just thought, oh here is an opportunity for an interesting conversation that goes beyond small talk. This particular play group is run by homestart so maybe he just assumed we are all mums with problems and therefore must be stupid, but this is actually a group that is run as a general playgroup for every one in our local are. I was so shocked my his rudeness that i couldnt speak. Hopefully he wont come back as he clearly thinks he is above all that - honestly, im sooooo i could spit! This is not a man issue, i love it when men come to playgroups as they tend to provide a real balance and are just as entitled to be there as mums.

Chantilly, the problem is that you cannot really quantify whether your friends children speech was delayed because of the signing or because of other reasons. It is a reasonable conclusion to make that if you sign and don't verbalise then the speech will not come as there will never be the association but if you always use the words then i cannot see why there is a delay. I just wonder if visual recognition establishes itself before verbal language in the neural circuits of the brain. Thats just my theory i have sucked out of my thumb.

I think the jury is still out with health professionals, when we took DD to see the peadiatrician about her speech i enquired about signing and she said that some people dont think its a good idea ( i got the impression that was her view) but others have found it very useful. I wonder if whether it helps or not depends on the reason for the speech delay as having looked it up it seems there are lots of totally different reasons why speech is delayed. Maybe moondog could shed some light on that for us. I know for instance that there are children who have delay in both receptive and expressive language and children, like my DD, who clearly understand everything she is told but her expressive language is delayed. So could it be maybe that children who have delays in understanding language as well wouldnt benefit as much from signing? Again, i dont know, just thinking out loud, well through my fingers at least

I think that the plan is that the signing session is going to take place and yes, harpsi is exactly right, i hardly think that one signing session that the children are just going to see as their mummy's singing and gesticulating madly is going to suddenly undo all of their speech development.

Yes, you have to verbalise the signs and use good body language too for it to be effective. e.g saying Goodbye; wave and say bye bye whilst moving away from your LO. Basic explanation but the 3 go together and reinforce the message on the brain. DD now waves and says Bye Bye to cars that are driving away possibly because we wave bye bye to Daddy every Morning!

There's loads of research to back up the benefits of signing, and indeed other augmentative forms of communication (eg picture programmes such as PECS). It is my filed of expertise and has been for 12 years.

LE'smum, although we look at comprehension and expression separately for purposes of assesssment,in relaity they are very much linked.

Signing will assit with comprehension (not least because it slows the speaker down and makes them think about the complexity of language used. Also, many children are poor at auditory processing and operate much better visually (people with Downs' Syndrom in particular).

If the child then uses signs expressively then this is fab, but even if they don't there is no doubt that regular use of signs around the child wil laid comprehension significantly.

As I tell people over and over again, kids won't sign unless the adults aronud them do.

Oh, and I wouldn't bother asking paediatricians questions about language development.They know not of what they speak, in the smae way that I would be unable to give you accurate info on medical issues.

Go to a salt or a psychologist.

Yes,and with augmentative (augmentative to language that is) signing systems, the sign is always made simultaneously with the spoken word/phrase.

Systems like BSL are languages in their own right and generally speaking are used instead of speech,not in conjunction with it (which would be hard as different 'word' order and syntax.)

Lucy,it seems that easier ot make gross motor movements associated with signs that it is to make fine ones associated with speech (as well as additional lang. development considerations.)

Use of augmentative signing systems came about because it was noted that babies (deaf and hearing) growing up in homes where BSL (or equivalent) was used were signing at 7/8 months, which is a whole lot earlier than a child will be using words.

The rest is history.

Thanks moondog, that is really interesting.

There was a lady at the ST group last time we went that was deaf, her child had speech delay and i sort of thought, oh well i guess thats to be expected, but she said she had three other children that were fine and sign language really helped them. I think she does tend to stick to makaton signs for the children though.

We have only had a short 8 week session of SALT for lucy and are now awaiting some more. NHS so could be a long wait, i have considered going private but to be fair her speech is really coming on. I didnt find that the sessions themselves helped, in fact she clammed up completely but i found the information and the clues on how to help invaluable. I was constantly asking lucy questions, the SALT said she was going to slap my hand every time she heard me do it (she ws joking of course).

Moondog, sorry to be a pain but just one more q. Lucy was 2 in July and her vocabulary has increased a great deal, although alot of her words are unclear and unfinnished. (Was a bit miffed when she told me last night that the book i was reading to her was bore(ing) ) She does now have some two word phrases and they are increasing all the time and even occasional three word things like, mummmy bought shop, and daddy sit down, that sort of thing. At home i think, fantastic, she doesnt need any more help and then i compare her to other children her age who are speaking in sentences and i think maybe she does. What i am trying to say, badly, is - even though i have seen a vast improvement do you think she will benifit from more sessions and is it worth me pushing for it, or even going private?

incidentally, she was a bum shuffler and walked late, she is also ambedextrous. I was worried initially about dyspraxia but her fine motor skills seem fine, if not advanced to be honest.

LE,what you describe is well within the spectrum of normal language development.

General rule of thumb is

Single word/s by 1
Two words together by 2
Small sentences by 3

I wouldn't bother with more salt tbh.

The important things are the ones you already know no doubt (lots of talking/reading/playing and minimal tv)

thanks for that moondog, i was thinking along those lines too. Today she was bellowing "shut up bob" at the top of her voice in tesco express becauae our little dog was tied up outside and barking. I got some very strange looks, but i just wanted to say to people, but look, thats brilliant, thats like, three whole words!

LEM - sounds like your DD has come on really well with her language, that's great to hear.

Lovely to hear about a sing and sign session for slightly older children - wish they would put one on where I live (don't fancy doing sing and sign with a load of 8 month old babies and DS!).

the whole premise of makaton is to facilitate communication. For a child like my dd1 - makaton is essential in her understanding and communication. However for her the whole premise works - in that they start with you signing and talking, they do an approximation of the sign, then sign clearly, then sign and speak and eventually drop the sign. For some children with sn - they may never be able to form words and so makaton provides them with a 'voice'.

In our experience - with both dd1 ( sn) and dd2 ( non sn)language and communication skills have improved and in dd2's case are ahead of her peers due to this ability to communicate and participate at an early age.

In terms of makaton - the idea is you speak the word as well as sign - not just sign - unless it is across the room and you are asking your child if they need the toilet or a drink or to eat But that is it - do not just sign - use the word.

In dd1's case we have been big believers in signing and again her language skills are ahead of her 'peers'.

Our dd2 was an early talker and now at almost 3 is well ahead of her peers - I started signing with her at about 6 months like I am with dd3 - just one word - more. Dd2 used the signs and even now will sign and speak - never just the sign.

Brilliant Eidsvold.
A real endorsement of the benefits of signing.