Are we being unreasonable to want to force her?

[CutToChase]

My gran is in her late 80s and lives in England.
My parents live in Ireland.

My gran lives in this kind of place, I'm not sure what you call it: lots of self contained flats for elderly people, so it's not really a home, more like a kind of assisted living residence.

She has always been very independent.

She has all her marbles and is sharp as a tack. She was also a war child, so you know the drill: trooping on without complaint.

However her health has been deteriorating rapidly. She has had just about every type of cancer you can imagine. Now her cancer has become skin cancer. Her feet are swollen, some days she cant wear shoes. Last week her consultant told her the cancer had spread to her back. It turns out it was shingles.

We have started a campaign to try and get her to go over to live with my mum in ireland now. She has always said she wanted to do this. She can travel and is so happy when she is over there.

I've been calling her weekly (we all take turns) and yesterday I really said we needed to get her over to live in ireland and she said how much she would love that. My mum is worried now that autumn is coming and there might be more lockdown in the UK and she could deteriorate and be all on her own.

My gran seems to really want this but something is stopping her. She says she feels too tired to make it happen. I also think she is worried about changing consultants etc.

But what should we do? It cant be right that we leave her there in the UK to live alone through this? Especially when she would love to go and live with my mum. At the same time she is digging her heels in - I'm not too sure I fully understand why. But wouldnt it be better for her if we forced her? I know we need to respect the elderly's decisions. But surely this is the right thing for her? If this is the end, surely it is better to spend them in peace, in a family home with the comforting presence of people who love her. Maybe she is just scared and to a certain extent it could be helpful for us to make the decision for her?

YABU = Respect her wishes and drop it
YANBU = Take control and get her to ireland

[forgetthehousework]

I am really sorry for your situation @DarklyDreamingDexter but the OPs situation is different.
Her GM is in sheltered accommodation already; she has family close by; she has a medical team in place to treat her cancer.
My late MIL had a brilliant support team throughout her last illness and enjoyed the time she was able to spend with her friends in the sheltered accommodation, which would not have been possible had she moved in with us.

[Ontheroadtorecovery]

What does she want to do, moving is a bug thing physically, practically and emotionally. Given she is aware of her deteriorating health it would be kind to ask and help her to plan for what she would like you cannot force her to do anything though as it's would be unlawful

[WhenISnappedAndFarted]

My Gran was forced to move and it killed her. It wasn't what she wanted to do but she was forced to do it by my uncle and she'd passed away a few days later. She was miserable and it destroyed her, she was taken away from everything she loved.

Now I know that's at the other end of the scale and very dramatic but you need to do what she wants and don't force her to do anything. If it's just the practical stuff, you have to do it but you ave to make sure it's what she wants.

[canigooutyet]

I'm going to be honest here. Reading this has reminded of the "good" old days when I was forced by the courts to choose who I wanted to live with.

This is essentially what you are doing. Forcing her to make that choice between her children. Stay where she is and close to one, or move miles away to be with the other.

I'd get hounded by them to make that choice. How can you tell someone you don't want to live with them/near them?

Does she want her adult child providing intimate care?
Does she want to be that much of a "burden" on her DD?
Does her DD understand the amount of care she might need to provide especially if her minds starts to go?
Does she want to give up the independence she currently has?

Surely she can have the nice family time around the telly/dinner table with her family that lives nearby? Same with when family go and visit her.

Is she medically well to travel?
How will her needs to be financed in Ireland?

I'm not saying answer these now, just things that need to be considered.

My advice, one person talks with her properly and leaves her to think about it all. That you understand sometimes it's hard to vocalise these things and writing it all down can be helpful. And no matter what she decides you will all support her.

Does she even have friends in Ireland? Other than her dd who else is around as she might feel overwhelmed about the potential isolation.

[Batshitbeautycosmeticsltd]

YABU

[canigooutyet]

If someone tried to put the frighteners on me because I wouldn't go along with their plans, and my safety wasn't an issue, I'd be telling them to go fuck themselves and who the hell did they think they were?

THe mum has accommodation, she has family nearby and her medical needs are being attended to.

She's not a child to be told what to do, and even a child I would expect to have some say if it involved them.

Be much easier for the parents to rent an full use air bnb on a regular basis to do the family things the person is missing.

Changing health authorities is also hard waiting for all the medical notes to pass over. Even during on going treatment there are holdups.

[corythatwas]

It's more about the comforts of living with family I think she misses - you know, watching the telly with someone, sitting down to a family meal together every night, being involved in a household.

Are you quite sure she wouldn't find this exhausting? Especially living in somebody else's family home?

My mother is a very healthy matriarch type, never happier than when sitting at the top of the table surveying her 20-odd descendants. But even she needs a long rest after each family get-together.

As for living in a family home run by somebody else, having to follow the family structure of another, much younger family, yet being unable to be open about how exhausting it is- I don't think she would last very long at all.

[mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork]

Sorry, I think YABU. As you get older you are happiest in the home you know and suits you. Also you get tired a lot quicker. I can quite see that, in her present state of health, she doesn't feel like the huge upheaval of moving home (even if others do all the physical work for her) and leaving the home she is comfortable in and used to. My own grandmother always said (having moved home when in her 70s) - DON'T MOVE ONCE YOU ARE OVER 70 - she felt it was a great mistake and she was a very energetic, hard-working woman. As she has still, thankfully, got all her marbles, let her make the decision herself. There is nothing worse than well-meaning family nagging you (however kindly meant) when you are not feeling well and have made your decision.

[WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll]

My mum was similarly adamant that she wanted her independence in her own home. She refused to consider sheltered accommodation which is what we were pushing for. She also refused daily carers or nurses coming in. Her idea of hell was living in a nursing home, but we were afraid that on her own she’d have a fall or a stroke and the choice would be taken away from her. Well that’s exactly what happened and now she is in a nursing home as she needs a higher level of care.

If she hadn’t been so stubborn, maybe it wouldn’t have come to that?

The thing is, though, that adults with capacity are still allowed to make their own decisions in life, even if they end up seeing consequences that might not appear to others as overall positive. Maybe if she hadn't had the chance to let her first wishes play out, she may always have resented where she ended up; but at least she was able to give it a chance and come to her own realisation.

Just as parents of adult children have to be there and offer advice but also allow them to make their own life decisions, elderly people (if still mentally capable) don't suddenly deserve to have that same human right taken away from them.

I was listening to Any Questions/Any Answers on Radio 4 a little while ago and they were talking about residents of care homes having suffered greatly from the isolation and not being able to see their loved ones, even if the loved ones could prove they'd just had a COVID test that was negative. A care-home worker called in and expressed dismay that people seem to believe 'a cuddle' is worth the risk of infection to the resident.

A lot of younger people don't really seem to understand the mindset of the elderly and/or frail. If you're fighting fit and 25, of course you'll make sacrifices or defer enjoyment if that will contribute to helping you to see/enjoy your next 5, 6 or 7 decades more; but when you're in your 80 or 90ss and in very poor health, there's every chance you would value being able to spend your last few months - even what turns out to be your very final day - with your loved ones (and dismissing it as 'a cuddle' is very dismissive and suggests a real lack of comprehension) rather than spend another year or two alone, bored and feeling abandoned.

The elderly aren't just to be be stored away or rehomed somewhere more convenient until they hurry up and die and leave you to enjoy your own life with their money.

[WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll]

I should say - those were general comments addressing a common pervasive attitude and were in no way addressed specifically to the poster whose post I quoted.

[catpoooffender]

My gran died last November. We thought we knew what was best for her in terms of living arrangements before then - we thought she should move into assisted living so she would have more of a social life, easier access to get out and about, and fewer safety risks. She was adamant she didn't want to. After she died we realised we were wrong to have thought we knew better. She was able to stay in her home until a few days before she died, and although arguably it was a fall in her home that did lead to her death, that could have happened anywhere.

The situation is different because my Gran didn't want to do what we thought she should do. However, whatever the reasons, you shouldn't force your Gran to do anything she is reluctant to do. I think her wishes need to be respected. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk to her about her concerns and see if you can address them, but don't force the issue.

I hope her remaining time is peaceful and that you all get to spend quality time with her

[ASandwichNamedKevin]

@Topseyt

I find your language about starting campaigns and needing to be pushier disturbing, to be honest. It may be well intentioned, but it is overbearing and potentially bullying type behaviour that could cause an elderly and infirm person a lot of distress.

Equally disturbing are those posters saying that you should get her over there on holiday and don't bring her back. So doing it by stealth rather than treating her as a real human being.

No to both of those approaches.

I think that she is making it abundantly clear that she doesn't want to move but is trying to avoid telling you too directly for fear of causing offence, but you are being too blind or stubborn to see it.

How long has she happily lived near to her son/daughter and her grandchild? Why this sudden need and pressure to return her to Ireland, particularly if she hasn't lived there for years?

Sorry if this sounds blunt, but it is the way I read your posts. You do not need to push her to return to Ireland to die. You need to listen carefully to her wishes without applying pressure. If she is happy where she is with you all just coming to visit when able then do that and stop pressurising her. It just isn't fair on her so back off.

All of this that Topseyt said.

You are talking about your grandmother in such patronising terms.
Why not ask her what she wants instead of railroading her? You're trying to encourage her to move away from family members who have probably been there for her for years, as well as her friendship network and health providers.
Getting older does not automatically mea losing capacity to decide one's own living arrangements. It all sounds so disrespectful.

[corythatwas]

there's every chance you would value being able to spend your last few months - even what turns out to be your very final day - with your loved ones (and dismissing it as 'a cuddle' is very dismissive and suggests a real lack of comprehension) rather than spend another year or two alone, bored and feeling abandoned

What the elderly person in the OP seems to be indicating is that she does not want to go and spend her remaining time in her loved one's home. Elderly people are allowed to feel that too. A cuddle can be lovely but so can peace and quiet. Familiar surroundings. Not living in the midst of the noise and bustle of a family of the young or middle-aged.

[CutToChase]

I think some of you are either wilfully misinterpreting me, or I wasnt clear in my opening post, which I am prepared to accept.

I am very close to my grandmother and love her a lot. "Force" was a turn of phrase, not truly what I was planning on doing - obviously.

I have asked her what she wants, but she can be difficult to read - is she saying no because she doesnt want to be a burden? Is she saying no because she genuinely doesnt want to? It's difficult. The only reason this has come up is because she has expressed many times that she would like to go and live with my mum. She says its wistfully, she says "when I come and live with you...". She is very close to my mum.

Only then when we come to talk about it more directly, she will shy away. Yesterday I asked her again directly and she said "on good days I feel I could do it. On other days I feel so tired".

Please dont simplify this or try to make me out to be some bulldozing granddaughter. I now regret using the term "forced". What I meant was I'm trying to figure out whether she secretly would like somebody to tell her "look gran, we can make this happen so let's do it".

It is very difficult to establish what she really wants, and what I just dont want to happen is that we back off and take what she says at face value, when deep down she would like someone to make the decision for her.

Obviously you have to balance a lot of underlying things here. When all is said and done we wont be pushing her to do anything she is saying she doesnt want to do. We are also considering getting someone up to go and live nearer to her but as you can imagine we need to think about hoe we can make this work as we are all scattered and need to consider jobs, mortgages etc.
We will need to think more and see how things evolve.

[AnnaMagnani]

Not wanting to be a burden is valid.

I've met elderly people who see not getting what they would really like as an expression of them still being a caring husband or wife - for example a man who would say he would like to die at home but then wriggled around making arrangements. Eventually it dawned on us that he wanted the freedom to say this was what he wanted, while actually not getting it so he could die not being a burden to his wife - still caring for her.

So it may be very hard to determine what she actually wants and what is just talk.

As a PP says, she may not want a family member to be washing her.

But if she stays in the UK, there absolutely are services to make sure she is cared for and living in sheltered accommodation already she is well placed to be picked up by them when the time is right.

[FredaFrogspawn]

The idea of taking her for a holiday isn’t to not take her back but to let her see how she feels when she gets there - she still makes the choice but it is made from there. So she could decide yes, this is what she wants and then op could step in and sort out her stuff for her, all the tricky bits she feels she can’t really cope with.

[WanderingMilly]

I live on my own, in independent living. I'm not 80, just 60's and work part-time. However, I have planned to be here once I'm older and wuld expect to make this my 'community'. I have relatives not so far away.

The idea that someone younger would want - or even force! - me to uproot, go somewhere else, leave my community behind and be stuck with family when I don't want to go, fills me with horror. Even when I'm older, I like being here and I like being on my own. I do not want to uproot, nor do I want to sit down with others when I eat and so on. If I had health problems I'd especially want to stay where they knew my medical history.

Leave well alone, its cruel. Or at least, make sure you really, really find out exactly whether this is something your Gran wants or not, and then respect her wishes....

[FredaFrogspawn]

Any suggestion that the op wants to force anything is so unfair on this thread. My mum was overwhelmed with the idea of moving and needed support in lots of ways. No forcing was involved, just sensitivity, enabling and kindness.

[FourPlasticRings]

@FredaFrogspawn

Any suggestion that the op wants to force anything is so unfair on this thread. My mum was overwhelmed with the idea of moving and needed support in lots of ways. No forcing was involved, just sensitivity, enabling and kindness.

It's really not unfair to suggest OP wants to force anything. It's literally the thread title. She also says, 'Wouldn't it be better if we forced her?' in the opening post and YANBU stands for, 'Take control and get her to Ireland'.

[NoSquirrels]

We are also considering getting someone up to go and live nearer to her but as you can imagine we need to think about hoe we can make this work as we are all scattered and need to consider jobs, mortgages etc.

But she has family nearby - your uncle, aunt & a grandson, who you say are “wonderful with her”.
So what exactly is this all about?

[NoSquirrels]

The only reason this has come up is because she has expressed many times that she would like to go and live with my mum. She says its wistfully, she says "when I come and live with you..."

What do your uncle & aunt think? They’re close by, presumably see her often. Do they think she’d like to move?

I think you’re over-involved, to be honest. Your mum abc her sibling should talk, then they should talk to their mum without pressure.

It’s a lot of guilt to lay on someone otherwise. I feel sorry for her. You might think you’re doing the right thing but I can’t imagine the pressure is any help to her.

[Saz12]

OP, to my ears your grandmother is saying, loud and clear, “ I want to move to live with my daughter but I don’t have the energy to make it happen”.

Check that that’s the case. If it is, then pull together a plan - paperwork, bank accounts, flights, packing, notice for her sheltered housing rental (or selling it). Find out exactly how to do it. Tell her you can get it all sorted out for her IF it’s what she wants. Then follow through, get it done.

[Eckhart]

is she saying no because she doesnt want to be a burden? Is she saying no because she genuinely doesnt want to? It's difficult

No it isn't. She's saying no. If it's because she doesn't want to be a burden, that's her prerogative. Many of us say no to many things because we don't want to feel like we're troubling someone.

The reason you want to move her is because you want to move her. You need to get a grip of the fact that this isn't about what you want.

[MagnoliaXYZ]

OP, you say you don't truly want to force your gran. Yet pretty much every post you write says just that, you've described the situation as 'a campaign.' You've written that you want to force her several times. You've said you need to be 'pushier' with her on the issue.

I get that you love your gran and that you want to spend time with her. But you need to respect her too. Respect the fact that she can make her own decisions. However unwise or illogical those decisions may or may not be does not matter; she has the right and the ability to make them. You and your mother need to remember that.

[tenlittlecygnets]

You can't force her. She has autonomy. The only way you can make decisions for her is if she has dementia.