Are we being unreasonable to want to force her?

[CutToChase]

My gran is in her late 80s and lives in England.
My parents live in Ireland.

My gran lives in this kind of place, I'm not sure what you call it: lots of self contained flats for elderly people, so it's not really a home, more like a kind of assisted living residence.

She has always been very independent.

She has all her marbles and is sharp as a tack. She was also a war child, so you know the drill: trooping on without complaint.

However her health has been deteriorating rapidly. She has had just about every type of cancer you can imagine. Now her cancer has become skin cancer. Her feet are swollen, some days she cant wear shoes. Last week her consultant told her the cancer had spread to her back. It turns out it was shingles.

We have started a campaign to try and get her to go over to live with my mum in ireland now. She has always said she wanted to do this. She can travel and is so happy when she is over there.

I've been calling her weekly (we all take turns) and yesterday I really said we needed to get her over to live in ireland and she said how much she would love that. My mum is worried now that autumn is coming and there might be more lockdown in the UK and she could deteriorate and be all on her own.

My gran seems to really want this but something is stopping her. She says she feels too tired to make it happen. I also think she is worried about changing consultants etc.

But what should we do? It cant be right that we leave her there in the UK to live alone through this? Especially when she would love to go and live with my mum. At the same time she is digging her heels in - I'm not too sure I fully understand why. But wouldnt it be better for her if we forced her? I know we need to respect the elderly's decisions. But surely this is the right thing for her? If this is the end, surely it is better to spend them in peace, in a family home with the comforting presence of people who love her. Maybe she is just scared and to a certain extent it could be helpful for us to make the decision for her?

YABU = Respect her wishes and drop it
YANBU = Take control and get her to ireland

[gobbynorthernbird]

I find something really off about the fact that, in your essay of an opening post, you don't mention that she has other family living really close.

[EarringsandLipstick]

However her health has been deteriorating rapidly. She has had just about every type of cancer you can imagine. Now her cancer has become skin cancer. Her feet are swollen, some days she cant wear shoes.

I've just re-read this.

I find it shocking that you think an elderly lady with all this going on, multiple cancers, now being physically disabled by then, can move to another country for her final days.

You really need to encourage her children to discuss the best way to care for her, and urgently. Is anyone going to her oncologist appointments with her? Is she having treatment?

[AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter]

Unless she lacks capacity to make her own decisions via the mental health act, you cannot "force" her even if you wanted to!

How are you suggesting you force her? dragging her out of her home? taking stuff out of her property against her will? taking her bank cards without her consent?

There is no way you can legally force anyone to do anything without breaking the law and/or causing a huge amount of personal distress to her. Is that what you really want- because that is what will happen. Unless she has a capacity assessment to show she is incapable of making her own decisions there is nothing you can do, and rightly so.

[frogswimming]

I think it would be too much for her. Transferring everything over on the admin side would be very stressful in her circumstances. She sounds like she doesn't have long left.

Becoming familiar with the differences in the healthcare system would be very difficult. What consultant would she see in Ireland? What hospital would she go to? How long would a referral take? Does she have a medical card? Does she have a GP? Is there a GP who would take her on? What about public health nurses? What about her pension? Does she have a pps number? There might be waiting lists for services. I think by the time it was all sorted out her health would have suffered and she might not have long left at all.

It would make more sense to move in with her other children or grand children who live nearby.

[ancientgran]

I'm almost 70, my husband is mid 70s. I want to move closer to family he can't face it. I think part of it is him accepting this is the last move and it isn't an exciting new beginning it is the beginning of the end in his head.

I wish I knew how to get past this.

[MollyButton]

I would stop trying to "force" her. Is there a more "nursing" facility close by that she could move to? My FIL lived in the flats at a old peoples residence, but it had an attached nursing home and when he needed extra care he could just move there.
On the other hand is she to be blunt likely to die soon? If so then is there Hospice accommodation that she can access? A lot of Hospices also do outreach work and help people stay in the community.
And when you are very sick you really don't have the energy to face big moves or making big changes.

And is she saying she wants to be in Ireland because that is what is expected of her or to make your mother feel better? Does she really want to be cared for by family and not by relative "strangers"? Quite a lot of people would prefer the latter when it comes down to it.

[12309845653ghydrvj]

I have a lot of sympathy for the situation but am not clear that this is what she actually wants. It’s really telling that in your opening post you fail to mention she has close family living nearby, so she does have family for company. And you mention some social life. Plus she has her own space, that she doesn’t have to share. There’s a very good chance she actually doesn’t want to be a lodger in someone else’s house? I appreciate though that it may be very difficult to get a firm answer.

The travelling and the logistics are also a huge issue—at her age she should not be doing any of this herself, and if you do want her to move I would expect the family to organise everything. It doesn’t sound like things like doctors have been seriously looked into, but that seems to be a huge potential issue? And how does her son feel about her moving away from him, have you talked to him about this?

With her health and the logisitcs and the fact that it doesn’t sound like she has long, i would en looking at trying to move closer to her for a bit if possible, or taking it in turns to do a month or so nearby?

One of the sad things for families when losing a loved one is they often want to spend all the time possible together, while the older person is satisfied by 20 minutes company, then tea and back to routine! I remember a friend who had a getting grandad, and would be told “you can leave now” after a 20 min visit that took a 5 hour drive!

[ChickensMightFly]

I think Big Change is daunting especially in her circumstances. I agree with a pp who said make it a holiday and then pave the way for it to become permanent, like talk to her consultant about how her care could be handed over, if it is even possible etc so once she is in the right place the doors can be joined

[mrstrickland]

Nobody can force her to move so its a moot point.

Talk to her and see what is holding her back. Moving someone from the life they have created and the support and friends they have made is very much not always the right thing to do. If she is receiving end of life care and she is getting everything she needs from that, I would be questioning why you want to move her

[slashlover]

I think she doesn't want to move but doesn't want to tell your parents that. She is settled with her own space, some of her family and her friends. Why would she want to move to somewhere where your parents are the only people she knows and therefore she is reliant on them?

[HathorX]

Fear of change, the journey, covid, the sheer amount of energy it would take to move, the upheaval and emotional draon at a time in life when she has a lot of pain and discomfort, fear of being a burden on family... there are lots of reasons she might be reluctant to move.

It is such a difficult decision, I don't envy you. If she is sharp as a tack but won't articulate her reasons for not moving, I would let it drop for a little bit then get someone to gently discuss whether she worries about being a burden on her family.

I do not think you should overrule or try to force her, that seems almost cruel and disempowering. Unless you think she is very depressed, in which case she might not want to move.

[CharityDingle]

Sounds like it would be a huge upheaval in addition to the fact that unfortunately coronavirus is still very much all around. Not a good time to expose an elderly, ill person to travel.

Ireland and Northern Ireland also have ongoing restrictions/ lockdowns that need to be factored in to your plans, in addition to whatever is in place in the UK.

And as has been pointed out, upthread, organising her ongoing health care would be a huge challenge, in itself.

YABU, in my opinion.

[myhobbyisouting]

"She also has my uncle and aunt and her grandson who live close by"

What a massive fucking drip feed that was!! Have you ever considered she's saying "oh I'd love that" as a way of not offending/upsetting your Mum? She probably doesn't want to move at all and enjoys her sheltered accommodation life along with living near her family.

[ChickensMightFly]

Re-read the op and subsequent op's. And my contribution is rubbish, take no notice.

[Nottherealslimshady]

By "make it happen" does she mean plan her journey and pack and unpack her stuff? Because you guys need to be doing that for her. Someone drives her, someone packs her belongings and takes them, tidies the flat up. Someone unpacked her at the other end. And you mum works with her current consultant to find an appropriate one over there. She shouldn't need to do anything.
Moving house is crap, I cant imagine doing it at her age.

[giletrouge]

How much time do you spend actually talking to her in such a way that she feels comfortable to say how she feels, which is probably extremely complex?

[Quartz2208]

I think you are underestimating exactly how much it would take for your grandmother to move and whether she would get to enjoy it

It sounds like you need to start focusing on what you can do to help her here - it sounds like you need to arrange some hospice care in the future etc

[LockdownLemon]

My friends mum is Irish and lives in Dublin.

[LockdownLemon]

Sorry - posted too early. She has complex medical needs and is an Irish national, so has full access to the health system. But it seems to be much lower standard and not fully funded. So a move might not be a good idea.

[sleepyhead]

My friend's mum would tell her regularly that yes, yes she wanted to move closer to her but always had a reason why it couldn't happen just yet.

After she died, friend discovered that her mum never had any intention of moving and was really just saying it to close down the conversation.

You gran might feel that she would be giving up quite a lot by moving from everything she knows, but not want to upset your mum by saying no.

[Prokupatuscrakedatus]

Has she lost capacitiy? If not, it is her life.
The younger generation often assume they know what the older generation wants and what is best for them, but they very often get it wrong.
Or interpret things to fit their own agenda.

[AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter]

@myhobbyisouting

"She also has my uncle and aunt and her grandson who live close by"

What a massive fucking drip feed that was!! Have you ever considered she's saying "oh I'd love that" as a way of not offending/upsetting your Mum? She probably doesn't want to move at all and enjoys her sheltered accommodation life along with living near her family.

Seriously- why did you leave this out of your OP???
You made it sound like she was completely and utterly alone.

Leave her bloody be, she clearly doesnt want to move and she has family nearby. Why on earth would you want her to move all her stuff, move to a different country at her age when she is really unwell?
There is something really "off" about this post....

[saleorbouy]

If you are thinking of moving her to the Republic of Ireland then please check what health care she would be able to get especially after Brexit. If the location is not Dublin, Cork or similar large city then its unlikely she would have access to care of a level she would get in the U.K.
Ireland's population is small so specialised care is concentrated in the major cities.

[FourPlasticRings]

No, don't 'force' her (though I've no idea how you'd legally do that anyway, given that you say she's mentally capable).

As long as she has full mental capacity you must let her make her own decisions. She is not a child.

[Atla]

I understand that you are coming from a place of love and worry.
However, if she has sufficient capacity you cannot and must not force her. It sounds like she has family and friends nearby, lives in sheltered accomodation so is safe, and has a good relationship with her doctor and healthcare team. It could be massively disruptive to move her and a big loss of her independence and autonomy. You really do need to respect her wishes at the moment.

Has anyone spoken to her about Advance Care Planning? What she would want if she becomes too unwell to make decisions about her care, or if her mental capacity deteriorates? She could have a discussion with her GP about this and make a formal record of her wishes.