Are we being unreasonable to want to force her?

[CutToChase]

My gran is in her late 80s and lives in England.
My parents live in Ireland.

My gran lives in this kind of place, I'm not sure what you call it: lots of self contained flats for elderly people, so it's not really a home, more like a kind of assisted living residence.

She has always been very independent.

She has all her marbles and is sharp as a tack. She was also a war child, so you know the drill: trooping on without complaint.

However her health has been deteriorating rapidly. She has had just about every type of cancer you can imagine. Now her cancer has become skin cancer. Her feet are swollen, some days she cant wear shoes. Last week her consultant told her the cancer had spread to her back. It turns out it was shingles.

We have started a campaign to try and get her to go over to live with my mum in ireland now. She has always said she wanted to do this. She can travel and is so happy when she is over there.

I've been calling her weekly (we all take turns) and yesterday I really said we needed to get her over to live in ireland and she said how much she would love that. My mum is worried now that autumn is coming and there might be more lockdown in the UK and she could deteriorate and be all on her own.

My gran seems to really want this but something is stopping her. She says she feels too tired to make it happen. I also think she is worried about changing consultants etc.

But what should we do? It cant be right that we leave her there in the UK to live alone through this? Especially when she would love to go and live with my mum. At the same time she is digging her heels in - I'm not too sure I fully understand why. But wouldnt it be better for her if we forced her? I know we need to respect the elderly's decisions. But surely this is the right thing for her? If this is the end, surely it is better to spend them in peace, in a family home with the comforting presence of people who love her. Maybe she is just scared and to a certain extent it could be helpful for us to make the decision for her?

YABU = Respect her wishes and drop it
YANBU = Take control and get her to ireland

[CutToChase]

Thank you so much for all these replies, you have really given me food for thought. In case it wasn't clear (seems like it wasn't!) of course we wouldn't literally force her . I meant more being 'pushier' about it, but it seems thats not the right way to go.

Regarding my uncle and aunt, it's so great she lives near them and they are wonderful with her. We were more thinking about what happens when she needs help with bathing and things like that.

[GooseberryJam]

How often do your aunt and uncle nearby visit her? Does she have other friends or people who visit?

[crimsonlake]

I've just re-read this.

I find it shocking that you think an elderly lady with all this going on, multiple cancers, now being physically disabled by then, can move to another country for her final days.

You really need to encourage her children to discuss the best way to care for her, and urgently. Is anyone going to her oncologist appointments with her? Is she having treatment?

This exactly and have you really thought through how your dm would cope and is she behind this or are you the driver?

[Deadringer]

Presumably your aunt or your uncle is her child. If so, how involved are they in her care, and will they step up and do more as she needs it. If so i think she is better where she is. I agree with pp who said her children need to come together and talk to her about her needs/wants. (Even if by skype or whatever). I am not sure if you said op, but is your gran Irish, or are your parents her only connection to Ireland?

[GooseberryJam]

Just seen your update. If she lives in supported / sheltered housing it may be possible to buy in a care package as part of that. If not then it can be done separately. But as a cancer patient she should get nursing care as needed when she deteriorates. Does anyone go to appointments with her? Or can someone do the research for her on the care options?

[Candleabra]

She may not want the move. What you could do to help practically is make sure that she's getting everything she's entitled to eg attendants allowance and joining up the gaps between the NHS and social services re: care packages. It isn't the case that it's the family to help with caring or nothing. She may not want her son or daughter to have the responsibility, and it's not an easy thing to care for someone who requires full support. She may not want that change of dynamic - once you've started full on caring it's very hard to separate the caring burden from the person they once were.

[Brefugee]

But wouldnt it be better for her if we forced her? I know we need to respect the elderly's decisions. But surely this is the right thing for her?

Let her make her own decisions, FFS. Why don't your parents move to be nearer to her? And she has a son close by. He can get more involved with checking on her. Or not. Up to him.

But bloody hell, read that back. Forcing people to do what you want? get over yourself and leave her alone.

[alreadytaken]

Your grandmother has all her marbles at the moment but moving elderly people from familiar surroundings can lead to rapid deterioration. She has a relative nearby, she has friends, she is already in supportive housing.

You need to be thinking of what is best for her and retaining some independence may be important. Or she may really want to live with her daughter but be too sick to have the energy to do so.

Stop pushing, it's strain she doesnt need. Some time after you have stopped ask In a non judgemental way ask if it would make a difference if you packed everything up for her and went with her or if she really likes her independence where she is.

What can you do to make life easier for her where she is? Does she already use technology to communicate with family and if not can you teach her to do so/ see she has the means to do so.

[rooarsome]

@CutToChase

Thank you so much for all these replies, you have really given me food for thought. In case it wasn't clear (seems like it wasn't!) of course we wouldn't literally force her . I meant more being 'pushier' about it, but it seems thats not the right way to go.

Regarding my uncle and aunt, it's so great she lives near them and they are wonderful with her. We were more thinking about what happens when she needs help with bathing and things like that.

I imagine she will be put forward to the CHC for a package of care, which can take up to 28 days, however there is a rapid process for patients approaching the end of life. District nurses can refer to this.
In my locality most of our patients receive care visits up to 4 times a day, and we work with a wonderful hospice who also offer day and night sits.

[myhobbyisouting]

"We were more thinking about what happens when she needs help with bathing and things like that."

You're assuming she'll need help with bathing which is a leap to start with. An even further leap is assuming she'd want her daughter to assist with intimate washing . Have you ever heard of carers?

God. I'll say it for her as she's clearly too kind to say what she's thinking to you....Back off. She's an adult, your behaviour and attitude is presumptive, unwarranted and suffocating

[Atla]

As @GooseberryJam said, she may be able to buy in a package of care from her sheltered accomodation. But, as a cancer patient, she will absolutely be on the radar for more support and help with personal care if/when her condition deteriorates.

Everyone is different, but while some people wouldnt want strangers caring for them, some people are equally distressed by the thought of family doing personal care, so find out what she wants.

[TheNoodlesIncident]

I agree with other posters, I don't think she really wants to move, let alone to another country. Why should she, it sounds like the current arrangements are managing the situation just fine. Is it that your side of the family are feeling sidelined or that you would like to be more involved with your GM?

Personally, I do think she's better off where she is. To move her would cause a lot of upheaval, and to what end? Would it make a marked improvement to her care? Would she have more and better social interactions? Would her new living space really be better than what she has now? I don't think it would, and I don't see the point in creating a huge change and lots of accommodations for not much gain.

I agree that she is probably saying she would like to move to your mum's out of politeness and reluctance to say she'd rather stay where she is. She has friends and family where she is, she's not all alone there.

[NoSquirrels]

You’ve ‘started a campaign’?

Listen, she lives near family, she’s in a retirement complex so good neighbours and presumably an overall warden figure in charge, so housing designed for her needs. She’s totally mentally well and independent. She’s entitled to make the decision to stay where she is, and you should respect her wishes. If she really wanted to live with your mum (rather than just sometimes wishing things were different) then she would be more enthusiastic.

[Asterion]

Talking and talking about it won't make it happen.

I'd get her over to Ireland on holiday. Once she's there, it will be much easier for her to agree to stay there. Then you and your brother pack her stuff up and do all the hard work.

[FourPlasticRings]

I'd get her over to Ireland on holiday. Once she's there, it will be much easier for her to agree to stay there. Then you and your brother pack her stuff up and do all the hard work.

That's a bit dreadful, isn't it? Get her on her own and away from everything, bully her into agreeing to stay and then do everything else while keeping her there so she can't change her mind?

[Pinkandwhiteblossom]

After she died, friend discovered that her mum never had any intention of moving and was really just saying it to close down the conversation.

^^this

MIL was a great woman for telling people what they wanted to hear, with no intention of actually doing it. It’s definitely a point worth thinking about.

Very hard situation OP.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Having just moved countries, I understand her. As well as leaving what is familiar to you, even things you may not like but that you've grown comfortable with, you have to find a mover. This took me a very long time as I was concerned about price, but also needed someone realable to move from one country to the next. Then, the pandemic meant I couldn't go back and forth so I had to put my things into storage. Extra cost and having to arrange that remotely. Then needed help with the move and of course had to do another move from my storage place the other side. It was quite stressful!

Of course, it's easier if you have somewhere to go to straight away and family to help, but still...

[HaggieMaggie]

All the problems with her wanting to go and physically being able to aside.....can you actually just up sticks and move to the Republic of Ireland and just slot into the system? A previous poster has provided links to healthcare which is her overwhelming priority in all of this.

[Topseyt]

I find your language about starting campaigns and needing to be pushier disturbing, to be honest. It may be well intentioned, but it is overbearing and potentially bullying type behaviour that could cause an elderly and infirm person a lot of distress.

Equally disturbing are those posters saying that you should get her over there on holiday and don't bring her back. So doing it by stealth rather than treating her as a real human being.

No to both of those approaches.

I think that she is making it abundantly clear that she doesn't want to move but is trying to avoid telling you too directly for fear of causing offence, but you are being too blind or stubborn to see it.

How long has she happily lived near to her son/daughter and her grandchild? Why this sudden need and pressure to return her to Ireland, particularly if she hasn't lived there for years?

Sorry if this sounds blunt, but it is the way I read your posts. You do not need to push her to return to Ireland to die. You need to listen carefully to her wishes without applying pressure. If she is happy where she is with you all just coming to visit when able then do that and stop pressurising her. It just isn't fair on her so back off.

[myhobbyisouting]

"I'd get her over to Ireland on holiday. Once she's there, it will be much easier for her to agree to stay there. Then you and your brother pack her stuff up and do all the hard work."

You'd do what? hope I'm no relative of yours!

I had a friend whose treacherous family did similar. Took her years to get home from Pakistan, it was not the "holiday" they told her it would be.

[KarmaStar]

You have made it clear she's very aware of her life and what's going on around her.
If you haven't done so i would sit her down and say that you know she's always talked of returning to Ireland and what is stopping her.make a list of her worries.
Then say that if you are able,with your parents and family,to address all of these worries,would she be happy to make the move.
She might want a day or so to consider everything.
If she decided she wants to remain then leave it there.
Say you won't broach it again,but will do your utmost if she subsequently changes her mind.
It could be she is happy where she is and just enjoys holidays in beautiful Ireland.
Routine and familiarity should never be under estimated.
I hope she makes the right decision for her.

[Ivyr0se]

I think it would be very distressing to move her at this stage of her life. She sounds gravely ill and like she is getting good medical attention where she is.

The HSE is a mess and I would be very concerned that by moving her to Ireland, she will fall through the cracks with waiting lists etc.
Is she allowed to have anyone live with her? I think it would be kinder for your Mam to visit her and see herself how she is before you all make any decision.

[Topseyt]

@myhobbyisouting

I agree with you. That was one of the posts I was referring to. I think that attitude is disturbing and disgraceful.

[WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll]

Have you ever considered she's saying "oh I'd love that" as a way of not offending/upsetting your Mum?

This entirely. A lot of older ladies have learned through a lifetime of experience to tactfully agree with somebody else's opinions, to avoid hurting their feelings, but not make their own decisions based on that.

Even on a very minor level, it's kinder to tell your friend who proudly shows you her new curtains that they are beautiful but then, when she urges you to get the same ones, find a reason such as 'wouldn't look right with my furniture' or 'my windows are too small', rather than just come out and say they look like somebody has violently vomited over a Jackson Pollock painting.

She is elderly, she's very physically ill, she has capacity, she has family nearby, she has access to good, free healthcare - why on earth would she want to move now? As for when she needs help with bathing etc, carers (whether professionals or family) will usually go in and assist the elderly and vulnerable in their own homes rather than expecting them to move to where it suits the carer.

A big thing to consider that you may not have thought of is that you have been thinking where it might be better for her to live, but she might well be the pragmatic sort and have been thinking along the lines of where she wants to die i.e. where she'd prefer to spend her last years/months, where she wants to be buried/have her ashes scattered, which friends she would want to come to her funeral etc. Elderly people often set a lor of store by these considerations and want to have a good death that they have a big say in. Most of us like to plan our future as best we can and she will realise that this is a very big part of her not-too-distant future. They don't just want to stop living and have their life 'closed off' as somebody else sees fit.

I don't mean to be rude, and I might have misinterpreted you, but it sounds like you and your DM are thinking about what suits you rather than her. She isn't a little baby who just gets taken wherever her parents need to go and neither knows or cares about it; she's an intelligent elderly person with a whole lifetime of experiences and memories that help to make her who she is today.

[CSIblonde]

What she means is the organising & logistics of a move are beyond her. I'd offer to take care of everything ,help pack up her stuff & be there on the day etc. Leaving a consultant who mistook shingles for cancer I wouldn't worry about tbh.