To think lack of representation can affect life and/or career choices

[boomboomg]

Very annoyed. Had a massive argument with DH about this.

He believes lack of representation in an industry is not a think it doesn’t dissuade people joining particular sectors.

He refuses to accept people may feel less confident or that they can achieve something when they don’t see themselves represented in a certain field or industry.

We discussed this in relation to both race and gender - my point being that a female going into a male dominated industry may affect her performance or even decision to go into that particular field - similarly a lack of representation of your race in a field or industry can do the same.

He said this is an excuse and only a very small part of the problem - the reason why certain groups are not represented is because of their upbringing and/or access to education or their preference and has little to do with anything else.

The conversation has got me very upset that he has these views and this mindset.

YABU - DH is right and lack of representation doesn’t play a part in your life/career choices or plays very little part

YANBU - DH is wrong and lack of representation obviously can affect your career and life choices

Has anyone ever felt the lack of representation of themselves affected their career and or life choices?

I was frequently the only woman in my university courses. I am now often the only woman on project teams. It has never bothered me in the slightest. It has always surprised me that women felt like they needed to limit themselves when I always felt that I should take that harder class or try for that job and that not making the effort to challenge myself would be a personal failing.

In middle-age and with some clarity about who I am as a person, I can also say that I may have simply missed some social cues that told me that I should stay in my place like a nice little girl.

Yanbu

“If you can’t see it you can’t be it”

Also how would your DH know? Unless he’s gone into a field where men (also white?) are underrepresented and stereotyped as not as good at.

YANBU. DH being in a majority group (race and gender I assume) won’t get it. You can’t imagine how you would feel in a situation you haven’t experienced.

I run women’s career groups. My experience of many women in my area of work is that they are put off areas/ practices where there are only men or only men are promoted. It’s not irrational to not want to be another lamb to the slaughter.

DH being in a majority group (race and gender I assume)

Yes and when I pointed this out to him - being a white male means he sees himself in pretty much all occupations and sectors being represented or at least the majority so this will help his confidence and perspective on what he can achieve, he got angry and said he was annoyed at always being attacked for being a white male 🙄

I got frustrated and upset at how our mindset can be so misaligned in what to me is a very important issue.

I can only comment on being female, but no whenever I have made career decisions I do so for me personally I would have no idea how many females are in the work place until I join and personally I am not bothered anyway.

I do not use the fact I am an a female as an excuse to not apply or not try something different so no it does not hold me back in doing what I want to in life.

I will leave comments on other representations to those who are of that and not speak for them but using 'poor female' does not wash with me

@seayork2020 I never used the phrase 'poor female' and I think you're missing my point.

I work in an industry where I can go to conventions and of 500 people is an usually the only one there of my race. Out of 500 people I am maybe 1 of approx 30 women so I am massively underrepresented in the field I'm in.

However it never stopped me going into it.

What this does is have an impact on my confidence at times and I feel consciously or subconsciously is something many people experience.

I can also see (even though this hasn't happened to me) why people might be reluctant to go into industries where they are few and far between.

Why does your dh think the phrase 'male & pale' exists?

I worked in an industry where women are routinely less than 10% of the workforce. At my last company, the men went to the pub on Fridays while the 3 women were expected to answer the phones.
Women were paid less, offered less training.

Your dh is foolish and blind to what is around him but that doesn't make him a totally bad person. My dbrother is the same. My dB is not a very sensitive man not a perceptive genius. He's a white professional male. He goes to work, works hard, is a decent fair-minded boss. But I doubt he has ever considered whether other workplaces are the same. Whether women or BAME are treated differently. Whether they had the same opportunities. He doesn't have the imagination. And his view is that since he didn't choose to be either male or white, it is unreasonable to blame him for it.

@Mintjulia precisely. And my experience as noted above I can think of countless examples of being treated differently in those situations because of either race or gender stereotypes. So how can this not affect oneself over time? It's surely inevitable.

Theres a difference between it stopping me and affecting me these are very different things and I also don't want this to be about me necessarily.

it's about the lack of acknowledgment by DH and a lot of people of the majority group in senior positions (white men) for the issue as a whole. I see it as problematic

He's a white professional male. He goes to work, works hard, is a decent fair-minded boss. But I doubt he has ever considered whether other workplaces are the same. Whether women or BAME are treated differently. Whether they had the same opportunities. He doesn't have the imagination. And his view is that since he didn't choose to be either male or white, it is unreasonable to blame him for it.

This

I've had this conversation a thousand times. People work in fair, reasonable places and predominantly men miss every day sexism/racism. If they see it they put it down to one arse hole nothing systemic because they wouldn't do it and they don't see it often in their fair and reasonable lives.

And his view is that since he didn't choose to be either male or white, it is unreasonable to blame him for it.

My DH thinks this.

I'm not saying people should feel blame by being white and/or male - but acknowledgment for how this is going to mean you are represented pretty much everywhere or at least in most places that are going to significantly shape your life and prospects and what you feel you can achieve - is all I would ask.

The fact that my DH can't do that I find very upsetting.

@Terrace58

I was frequently the only woman in my university courses. I am now often the only woman on project teams. It has never bothered me in the slightest. It has always surprised me that women felt like they needed to limit themselves when I always felt that I should take that harder class or try for that job and that not making the effort to challenge myself would be a personal failing.

In middle-age and with some clarity about who I am as a person, I can also say that I may have simply missed some social cues that told me that I should stay in my place like a nice little girl.

@Terrace58 I am the same, I think I missed any concept that I may not "fit". Happily there are more women in my sector now.

I work in teaching and black people are majorly underrepresented. In my huge city there are 26 black teachers. I am one of 2 non white teachers in my school, where 85% of the 1700 kids are BAME. All 8 of if our senior team are white males.
I used to go for more promotions but stopped when the jobs always went to external white men in an environment where we need black role models

Yanbu. An example where I could think maybe he can relate to is men going to work in a nursery setting with children ? Or primary school teachers.There's very few men in these settings yet I'm sure many men would consider this if there were other men in the profession.

I used to go for more promotions but stopped when the jobs always went to external white men in an environment where we need black role models

Exactly.

Good visual of women at a tech conference when all the men are removed
twitter.com/novallkhan/status/1308222956011692032?s=19

@Spinakker I gave him another similar example but he still wasn't getting it.

I'm just confused at how someone can't understand that when you are a minority in the workplace - you may not have a sense of belonging and/or feel like that space is designed for you and that this can affect you mentally at times and/or your choices and opportunities to progress in that space.

And just to clear up my last point - this has never personally stopped me as I'm a resilient person - but I can have empathy for some people who may not be as resilient.

Also while it doesn't stop me - at times I would say it affect my outlook and performance in certain situations.

I have read studies that show BAME people are more likely to suffer from imposter syndrome in the workplace.

Maybe for some. I think race/gender is perhaps a slightly different argument.

On the gender front, I'm never sure of the idea that if we had true equality then men and women would all be completely equally represented in all sectors at at levels. I just think a big part of it does come down to interest and inherent skills. For example, there aren't many woman work in IT, yes as analysts or PMs etc. but you don't get many proper techy women. Personally I think that's down to interest, maybe it's down to sexism and women believe they can't do it? I'm not sure. I just think that kind of work is really dull!!

I don't like the idea of hiring to have a perfect representation of gender /race as I think you end up hiring the wrong people (not based on merit) which can actually cause more harm than good.

Oh god I’m so tired of people not understanding their own privilege. I have this conversation with DH sometimes. Sometimes he gets it and sometimes he seems to wilfully misunderstand and pretend I’m saying “all white men have wonderful lives” which of course I’m not.

@imamearcat I couldn't disagree more. Computer programming was a job for women - lowly admin - for a very long time, it was only when it started having more prestige and importance that it became male.

I have two brothers. All three of us had an early interest in and aptitude for computers. Two now work in tech. I did a history degree, a social science masters, a series of policy jobs and am only now sloooooowly working my way back to programming and data analysis, which is what I really enjoy. Why is that?

Was going to say also, bet anything he's white male.

The main issue with this is that people tend to recruit people like themselves. Rather than it being about visibility. The biggest factor in terms of career aspiration is social class. If your parents didn’t know lots of other professionals and couldn’t offer much guidance, or your school, and your friend’s were similar. Parent will often limit their kids and not have high aspirations. This is more detrimental than race or sex.

Many ethnic minority parents are highly aspirational, often not coming from the lower classes before emigrating and often more educated than their job suggests. This is not the case for a lot of Caribbean immigration back in the 50s and systemic racism has prevented social mobility to a greater extent. White working class boys are falling behind most of all despite, on the face of, being represented. However working class is anything from parents who’ve never had a job for generations, and those who are aspirational and encourage their kids, perhaps they have worked their way up or disability has prevented social mobility. And working class isn’t a regional accent or just having a low income as a family. It’s deeply engrained attitudes and belief about life. You can’t tell how well represented this group because you can’t see or hear it. The class system is one of the worse aspects of the U.K. and is a big factor In keeping black kids’ aspirations low. Far more than representation.

Representation isn’t going to help working class kids who aren’t aspirational, especially if the people ‘representing’ them are from an affluent or educated background with supportive parents. What could help is targeted mentoring from people with similar backgrounds who’ve done well and understand the issues and have the connections and awareness of career options. This could be anyone, race, sex or disability, from less affluent and aspirational families. Increased representation will be a bi product.

Honestly, I've never really cared about the workforce around me, just whether the job interested me & paid enough. I'm a woman and work in a field that used to have a lot of men but it's much more even now.

It's very hard challenging preference. my profession tries very hard to attract BAME candidates but struggles to get black people to apply. We do a lot of work in schools and the black kids tell us our profession is "boring", not that they dont feel attracted to it because they would feel underrepresented. It is kind of a boring job in many ways (its very technical) but its stable and well paid so many people working in it don't care .

I gave him another similar example but he still wasn't getting it.

You do realise you're flogging a dead horse? He doesn't want to understand, it doesn't affect him so he doesn't care.

YANBU of course. But you know that.

My question to you is what do you want to do about that. I rant about sexism to my DH and he’s slowly got it. There are so many instances of everyday sexism that he used to say I was being hyper sensitive to and reading in things that weren’t there (he’s probably right on the sensitive bit) but now I see him clock it and he’ll sometimes whisper to me ‘your toes are curling aren’t they’. He works in a male dominated industry but his boss, and her boss are female and he’s recently promoted a female into his previously all male leadership team. He says he would always have done that. I hope he would, but I’m sure that getting better at recognising sexism has made him appreciate what women are up against more.

Sadly everyone in his part of the UK leadership team are all white, albeit he has lots of different nationalities in his team. BAME are not well represented at the higher levels.

I’m doing some work on unconscious bias in my job at the moment. We have the same problem that our top leadership are all white and male which doesn’t reflect the company as a whole. The thing about unconscious bias is that you don’t recognise it so you don’t realise you need to change anything in your mindset. If anyone’s interested then google implicit association tests Harvard. It’s a really good starting point to recognise what associations we have.