To think lack of representation can affect life and/or career choices

[boomboomg]

Very annoyed. Had a massive argument with DH about this.

He believes lack of representation in an industry is not a think it doesn’t dissuade people joining particular sectors.

He refuses to accept people may feel less confident or that they can achieve something when they don’t see themselves represented in a certain field or industry.

We discussed this in relation to both race and gender - my point being that a female going into a male dominated industry may affect her performance or even decision to go into that particular field - similarly a lack of representation of your race in a field or industry can do the same.

He said this is an excuse and only a very small part of the problem - the reason why certain groups are not represented is because of their upbringing and/or access to education or their preference and has little to do with anything else.

The conversation has got me very upset that he has these views and this mindset.

YABU - DH is right and lack of representation doesn’t play a part in your life/career choices or plays very little part

YANBU - DH is wrong and lack of representation obviously can affect your career and life choices

Has anyone ever felt the lack of representation of themselves affected their career and or life choices?

It’s all very well saying “I don’t care who else is working there” or “I’ve never cared that I’m the only woman there”, if the reality is that the other people there do care.

I used to have that attitude, then spent over a decade working in a very male-dominated industry before finally getting out last year. The sexism, both subtle and overt, was getting worse if anything. I just couldn’t put up with it any more.

My daughter has shown an interest in that industry too. On the one hand, I want to encourage her and get her thinking that she could do anything, but on the other I’m loathe to encourage her into an industry where she’s likely to have to work far harder for far less reward than a man would - I know she has the same attitude going into it that I did (screw it being male-dominated, I can do it just as well as any man), but I also know what awaits her.

Yes, having more women in these industries would likely help in the long run. But when the treatment’s so awful when you’re there, why would you stay?

We do a lot of work in schools and the black kids tell us our profession is "boring", not that they dont feel attracted to it because they would feel underrepresented. I

I very much doubt a black kid, who is probably sat in a hall as a minority, would put their hand up and explain the real reasons for not wanting to go into a certain profession. And I doubt all the black kids say it’s boring

@FreiasBathtub it's not particularly glamorous where I work to be more techy! Quite the opposite.

Everyone is quite technical where I work but women tend to go down the analysis / business route where as men tend to do the more hardcore coding roles. Both involve coding to some extent. One area isn't 'better' than the other, it's just what people end up doing.

There are more men than women (where I work) but we do have a good bunch of women, it's a bit of a running joke that we tend to perform better than the men!! But certainly have less of a desire to sit coding all day.

Data analysis is not really what I'm talking about.

@imamearcat oh I didn't mean glamorous, I agree it's not really! It just became better paid and with the possibility to get to the top of the company ie not just admin work, and that's when men started taking an interest in it. Of course that's a very crude characterisation. I do know what you mean about the split between analysis and coding, it's similar where I work, but I would think that it's very difficult to separate out natural interest/aptitude among women from what they see as 'normal' based on their representation in the workforce (and the entire pipeline of education that leads up to that).

I was fine studying and working in a very male dominated environment as a young woman, everybody was lovely to me, I wonder why..... As a middle aged woman not so much.

I also feel like it's harder to get promoted and form networks / friendships which are such an important part of progression at work when you are the opposite sex to everyone else. Just look at how suspicious many woman are when their DH has a female friend at work. Now imagine you're the only woman on the team. It can be lonely.

So I would say women are not irrational to prefer professions where they are not going to be a tiny minority.

@imamearcat I wonder if the business analysts get paid as much as the coders?

Where I worked it was always one job that combined both roles. Over a 20 year career in tech I only ever worked with a handful of women in technical roles.

I'm doing something else at the moment but if I go back (thinking about teaching computer science or maths instead) I will look for an organisation with more women in it.

How far do you go though?
There aren't enough women in certain industries
Or black women
Or black men
Or there's plenty of women in an industry but they are all white, privately educated women from rich backgrounds.

Men can argue that there isn't people like them - when they look at an industry or a company and just see white, well spoken, middle class men.

Representation is important - but you can always say that there aren't people 'like you' who are visible because we all have many characteristics about us beyond gender, race etc...

YANBU.

I do not use the fact I am an a female as an excuse to not apply or not try something different so no it does not hold me back in doing what I want to in life.

This attitude has been used to silence women and blacks people for centuries. The minute you raise legitimate grievances you are shot down as being too sensitive, too snowflakey or too much of a victim mentality.

Obviously there are people who have tonnes of confidence and pay no attention to the messages that society sends us but it is the mediocre majority who we are talking about here, who are affected by their surroundings.

About Coding, and women’s aptitude for it, it’s all a matter of perception.

Think about it. C++, Ada, Python, html, whatever, they are all just languages.

Women are notoriously good at languages. People used to think that men were better at languages until they didn’t.

I suspect it’s more to do with the culture than anything. All those insufferable sci-fi movies, gaming, (remember gamergate?), the adorkable misogyny of Big Bang theory, that culture is pretty heavily guarded and so not as attractive to girls as it is to boys.

Obviously there are people who have tonnes of confidence and pay no attention to the messages that society sends us but it is the mediocre majority who we are talking about here, who are affected by their surroundings.

This exactly.

@RomeoLikedCapuletGirls It's self evident to me that girls are likely to have the same ability at coding as boys. It's not like it involves the need for additional upper body muscle mass.

@boomboomg also people can change and their confidence gets ground down over time.

YANBU, YANBU many, many hundred times!

I think I might try and explain it to him by asking if he would do X or Y profession. If he says no, is it because 'people like me' don't do it? Why not? Does he think he wouldn't be able to do it. I think that power of people like me convention is very strong.

White men never accept their privilege and turkeys don’t vote for Xmas.

I'm a coloured woman, and I agree with your husband.

You have a point on confidence, but I'm not sure representation is necessary.
It does take courage and confidence to stand out and while representation can give you a boost, it can only do so much.
You can be a white male and merge into the background with a mediocre career.

Also, how can you get representation? Someone has to start somewhere. Yale and Princeton now have more Asians than ever, but how did they get there? They've never applied quotas.

@pigsinwings interesting response.

Do you not think it plays a part at all?

Also, why do you think BAME people, black people are underrepresented in so many fields? And women? What do you think the reasons are?

I think to a large extent people don't generally know what the demographics of their chosen industries unless there are obvious stereotypes eg doctors and nurses.

What really matters is when you eventually do go into those sectors and find that you're the only one THAT'S when the 'feeling of other' sets in. It also reduces your chances of progressing because you don't 'fit in with the culture' for either your company or any others in the vicinity. I strongly believe I wasn't able to keep my job because I was one of 2 BAME women in the team and we didn't get on as well with the other senior staff.

[quote boomboomg]@pigsinwings interesting response.

Do you not think it plays a part at all?

Also, why do you think BAME people, black people are underrepresented in so many fields? And women? What do you think the reasons are? [/quote]
Yes, it plays a part but I also think the groupings need to be accurate.

All white men are not the same. A white man who goes to Eton/Oxford is different to someone who grow up North from a blue collar background. Feeling out of place is a phenomenon not tied to race or gender alone. One has to be extremely secure to feel at home in all settings.

In terms of representation across fields, these shifts take time. We have more women in senior roles than before. However, you cannot ignore that many women self select out for a variety of reasons. SAHM, part time workers are predominantly women. Women are also primary care givers for the most part.

We (at least I ) feel guilty due to social conditioning. Nothing preventing me from going out there to gun for my career, but I do in many ways self select out for my family and kids. Many women do the same. Most working mums feel judged or stressed with their workload based on reading posts on mumsnet.

The metrics for self evaluation and value are different for different individuals

@pigsinwings you raise some very valid points and I agree for the most part.

Get your husband to watch David Olusoga lecture -

This can be extrapolated to lots of industries regarding race not just the media industry.

I have argued with my HR rep about this. He's white, my age (mid 30s) and said 'we put all jobs on the intranet and it's on you all to apply if you want the job/promotion.' My point to him, as a black woman,
-once I look above my managers level, I don't see people who look like me. When I see who is being promoted, I don't see people who look like me. I got my own promotion because my manager pushed me to consider it.

• my team is mostly BAME and have gained their positions via a non-conventional route. Looking at those job adverts, they feel underqualified because there's a lack of elaboration where skills gained through experience = experienced. Many feel stuck.
• they (myself included once upon a time) will exclude themselves because they lack confidence and feel inferior to the 'head office' types that visit us to talk about the newer job opportunities, and ultimately are the ones on the interview panels
• our innovations never get recognised until someone else has demonstrated that it works.

My manager's manager is a posh boy, and comes from a very wealthy background (most of you would know of his family). After a few initial clashes (our project is in a deprived area, and he came expecting our team to be uncouth ruffians), he's recently been pushing me to think bigger than the project I'm on now. He supports my manager in giving me more important, visible roles. Obviously, this has an amazingly positive effect on my job satisfaction, and aspirations. I wish I was this way 10 years ago (before kids!).

Interestingly, my DH is an African man who never had the confidence issues I have experienced. He's always felt he deserves anything worth having. So he's been an amazing inspiration too.