Mumsnet verdict needed: is this morally wrong?

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A friend of mine has done this, is it it morals wrong? Some details slightly changed.

He has run a kickstarter to raise money for a board game he has designed. You can back at different levels etc. He has raised £2,500.
He is now going to only produce the amount of copies needed to send to backers, and Is keeping the rest to pay off his personal credit card debt

For those of you who are unaware, most backers fund these project s it is implied at the news essential money is used to make additionally copies to sell, rpay for advertising or other costs, or perhaps towards the next project.

I feel it is wrong, akin to the PTA fundraising for playground equipment, raising £2500, spending £1000, and the head of the PTA us ingredients the leftover £1500 to pay off their credit card.

What is the verdict?

I’m a freelance designer. All profits go directly to me for me to spend the money on whatever I like, is that morally wrong!? It sounds like your don’t value their design time at all and you are only valuing cost of production.

What’s morally wrong is how undervalued designers are. I bet he’s barely remunerating himself for his time spent developing and designing his product.

lol @ at all those crying fraud on this thread. Just say you don't think artists deserve to earn a wage. If you pay an artist £10 for some work and the £10 goes entirely on materials and postage cost, what's in it for the artist? They have to pay rent and bills too, they're not creating as a favour to you.

Let me guess...he's created an invisible card game!

@Msmcc1212

It’s wrong. Not sure if illegal but does sound like fraud. No brainier that’s it’s morally wrong though.

How is it wrong?

I don't see it as any different to going to a craft market buying an item for X but the owner makes a profit then spends that profit on their bills

Kickstarter is a business thing isn't it?

I see the OP stands corrected now but I think those who think this is fraudulent have mixed up Kickstarter with Just Giving or similar. If he was claiming for an operation or something, it would be inappropriate to pay off his debts with the funds, that is not what people have donated for. KS is business though, not charity. People pre paying for a product or service with some risk involved as its not on the market at the time of paying.

It's fine that he takes some payment for himself, especially if he has incurred debt whilst developing the game.

Sorry. I thought it was pretty obvious. He isn’t intending on actually taking it to market. The money he has asked for is to help him set up a business and get it off the ground. Not pay if his personal debts? It’s obvious isn’t it? He’s got the money under false pretences. Kickstart is a way for people to chip in and support new enterprise.

Pretty much what it's for.

.you back an idea in development for a stated reward, if it becomes a commercial success great if it doesn't meh.

.as long as he doesnt promise a reward and not give it it's not like anyow is missing out are they?

As long as the funders get what they expected then there is no problem here. The comparison with the PTA is wrong, that is a completely different context for fundraising. Kickstarter and the like are there specifically to help people make money from their projects

@slashlover

I've pledged for a card game before (Exploding Kittens!) it raised almost $9 million from over 200,000 backers. Do I think it cost them $9 million to make the card game? Of course not. Do I care where the extra money went? Of course not. I paid my $35 and I got my game. They continued on, I've seen the game for sale in shops and they started a kickstarter for a different game.

Are Sony fraudulent or morally wrong for taking preorders for the PS5? Are people entitled to know what Sony do with the profit from selling the PS5? If Sony took the money and then didn't deliver then that would be fraud, if they take the money then send the console on the date they say then it isn't fraud or money laundering.

In Sony's case yes people are entitled to know how profits are spent as they're a public company with public accounts :p

The money he has asked for is to help him set up a business and get it off the ground.

Is it?

@Msmcc1212

Sorry. I thought it was pretty obvious. He isn’t intending on actually taking it to market. The money he has asked for is to help him set up a business and get it off the ground. Not pay if his personal debts? It’s obvious isn’t it? He’s got the money under false pretences. Kickstart is a way for people to chip in and support new enterprise.

Not necessarily as far as I know. I think you'd be well within your rights to use it to get funding to make, say, a limited edition range of jewellery, without intending to turn this into a longer term endeavour. That could be your business idea.

Admittedly, I've not read the T&Cs of Kickstarter and don't plan on doing so but I think the key point is that you deliver, or at least genuinely try to deliver on the product/ service you have offered.

Making a crappy version using cheap materials so you can pocket the rest would be dishonest but fulfilling your initial 'orders' and not making more for a wider market would not be.

“ But every project needs a plan for creating something and sharing it with the world....Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.”

If he stated when he collected the money that he was going to be paying off debts then no problem. If he didn’t it’s morally wrong and against the rules.

I thought Kickstarter was a crowdfunder to get new enterprise up and running but if it’s a way of pre-ordering goods/art etc then I guess the people funding it get what they order and that’s ok. I don’t think that’s the idea though.

If it’s debt from creating the thing he’s funding then that may be ok but he should have been up front about it. If he’s not planning to take it further than creating it for the folk that fund him that should have been explicit.

If I’m chipping in to help get someone set up with something that will generate further income for them, that is very different from me chipping in to get a limited edition of something that will never go further. Either way it’s dishonest to tell me it’s one and it’s really another.

Hands up everyone who thinks it’s fraudulent and actually knows anything about Kickstarter or anything about designing and manufacturing a product.....no one?!.....thought not.

@BrummyMum1 honestly they’re probably the same people that assume when you buy a hand made cake you should only cover the cost of the ingredients.

I’ve worked alongside quite a few who try Kickstarter campaigns and the truth is - many of them don’t go past fulfilling the initial rewards. Some don’t even do that.

So well done him for making enough money to fulfil and to pay himself.

I thought Kickstarter was a crowdfunder to get new enterprise up and running but if it’s a way of pre-ordering goods/art etc then I guess the people funding it get what they order and that’s ok. I don’t think that’s the idea though.

If it’s debt from creating the thing he’s funding then that may be ok but he should have been up front about it. If he’s not planning to take it further than creating it for the folk that fund him that should have been explicit.

If I’m chipping in to help get someone set up with something that will generate further income for them, that is very different from me chipping in to get a limited edition of something that will never go further. Either way it’s dishonest to tell me it’s one and it’s really another.

Have you ever published a campaign on KS or funded a project on KS? There's an awful lot of "if"s there.

KS is often used for one off projects "I want to publish a book", "I want to make a film", "I want to make a game". It doesn't mean that automatically leads to a business or further projects from that person. The same people can also sometimes publish several KS campaigns over time for different projects, there are a few I follow because I love their stuff.

Most of the board games I have seen on KS are pretty much - here's the game I want to make, here's how to play, here's what you get in the box, here is some of the artwork, it's for X number of players and the age range, maybe some videos of how to play.

Look at all the Kickstarter wannabes pretending to be experts. So patronising and superior.

No idea. Sound a bit dodgy.... but I would think if he’s successful he will be using his credit card to find further copies?? I don’t know what people who give money to this think their money is being used for... if they think this would be ok or not....

I think this highlights a huge problem in society with people not valuing creative people's time. This is not at all a personal attack on the OP or any other poster here - I'm just pointing out a systemic issue.

If you buy a coffee in a cafe, most people have no problem with the fact that a portion of the price they pay goes towards paying the wages of the people making the coffee, bringing it to your table, running the business etc.

However, when someone is 'making' or 'designing' something, it does not occur to a lot people that these people should earn a wage. Just an interesting observation.

(I think the 'paying off the credit card debt' is a bit of a red herring. This is essentially about someone taking a wage for their creative output, as previously stated up thread.)

people launder money in all different ways in all honesty, I don't mind being laughed at as I have seen it all! using charitable causes is a way of extorting money, getting people to 'gift' give smaller amounts and then moving that money around so it doesn't look suspicious, using private credit cards etc. It's not a new thing but tbqh after three pages I think my anitbiotics are making me more confused than normaL

Money laundering has a more specific definition rather than just being about slightly shady dealings, or being a form of tax evasion or avoidance. Laundering is cleaning up dirty money - so money obtained illegally is run through a legitimate business so it appears clean, and can then be spent without arousing suspicion as to its source.

@CoralFish this is so true. I work in an aligned industry and the amount of time’s we get “but we could do that ourselves”
Well I could do my accounts myself but I

• don’t have time
• will probably not do it very well
• if I get it wrong it will cost me money

@Cadent

Look at all the Kickstarter wannabes pretending to be experts. So patronising and superior.

I think it’s hilarious that you pick this up as the problem in this thread, rather than the load of people accusing someone of fraud and/or money laundering when they don’t have the slightest clue about what Kickstarter is.....