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Original poster

Mumsnet verdict needed: is this morally wrong?

122 replies

00100001 · 23/09/2020 19:24

A friend of mine has done this, is it it morals wrong? Some details slightly changed.

He has run a kickstarter to raise money for a board game he has designed. You can back at different levels etc. He has raised £2,500.
He is now going to only produce the amount of copies needed to send to backers, and Is keeping the rest to pay off his personal credit card debt

For those of you who are unaware, most backers fund these project s it is implied at the news essential money is used to make additionally copies to sell, rpay for advertising or other costs, or perhaps towards the next project.

I feel it is wrong, akin to the PTA fundraising for playground equipment, raising £2500, spending £1000, and the head of the PTA us ingredients the leftover £1500 to pay off their credit card.

What is the verdict?

OP posts:
Original poster
00100001 · 23/09/2020 21:27

@PatriciaPerch

it said in the original post it was for the PTA for a playground, so now it is board games, apparently - how are we to know
...no it didn't Confused
OP posts:
TotalFlustercuck · 23/09/2020 21:28

@PatriciaPerch

it said in the original post it was for the PTA for a playground, so now it is board games, apparently - how are we to know
No it didn’t... she used the term ‘akin to’ as in by comparison ...
PatriciaPerch · 23/09/2020 21:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Leaannb · 23/09/2020 21:31

None of this is fraud if he pays back his backers. Its called profit

slashlover · 23/09/2020 21:34

KS is not a charity, it is a SELLING PAGE. Essentially OPs friend thought up an idea for a card game, designed it etc but didn't have enough money to manufacture it.

He put it on KS and set up different funding levels with different incentives. If you pay X then you will receive a card game, if you pay X+Y then you will receive something different. As long as the backers recieve what they paid for then it's fine.

KS is essentially like Dragon's Den where instead of one backer paying all the money, you get multiple backers paying smaller amounts.

SardineJam · 23/09/2020 21:34

And sometimes on Kickstarter you can donate towards a project without getting a reward for doing so, because you are passionate about the idea the creator is offering.... So that person who donates and gets nothing does so willingly and the creator can do whatever they want with the donation, pay towards the production of the idea or compensate themself their time and design etc

PatriciaPerch · 23/09/2020 21:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

burnoutbabe · 23/09/2020 21:35

Seems fine to me.

If I want to pay £20 to him for a card game and he sends me the card game, what does it matter if it cost him £1 and he made £19 per copy?
I mean that is business!

PatriciaPerch · 23/09/2020 21:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TotalFlustercuck · 23/09/2020 21:38

Why are people so adamant they know the answer when they’ve clearly never heard of Kickstarter?

newnameforthis123 · 23/09/2020 21:41

When you come up with the budget for your Kickstarter project you are advised to include labour costs - whether that's your wage for your work or anyone else who needs to be paid. The money isn't just for the bare physical cost of producing the product.

If he wants to use his wages, that he earned by creating a product and selling it to pay his debts or to go on holiday - that's entirely up to him.

Absolutely this. You pledge in return for very clear tiered rewards / products. If you get that reward / product then what the founder does with any profits is not relevant.

It's not fraud in any sense.

PatriciaPerch · 23/09/2020 21:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BrowncoatWaffles · 23/09/2020 21:53

He deserves to be paid for his work designing the game. So he should take some of the profit and pay himself. What he chooses to spend is up to him as long as it is declared and taxed appropriately.

Absolutely this. It's not Just Giving is it?!

Leaannb · 23/09/2020 21:56

@PatriciaPerch

isnt it money laundering
Not even close
Wakaranaihito · 23/09/2020 22:09

It's not a charity he started, it's a business. He can do what he likes with the money as long as he fulfils the promises to the backers.

After costs and labour, I doubt there will be much left and his hourly wage with designing and development will be pennies.

Nothing immoral about it.

Msmcc1212 · 23/09/2020 22:17

It’s wrong. Not sure if illegal but does sound like fraud. No brainier that’s it’s morally wrong though.

NameChange9824 · 23/09/2020 22:24

@Msmcc1212

It’s wrong. Not sure if illegal but does sound like fraud. No brainier that’s it’s morally wrong though.
How is it morally wrong? I presume you expect to be paid for your work?
slashlover · 23/09/2020 22:28

@Msmcc1212

It’s wrong. Not sure if illegal but does sound like fraud. No brainier that’s it’s morally wrong though.

Can you please explain how it is morally wrong?

aharddaysnight · 23/09/2020 22:28

It doesn't seem morally wrong at all and it is certainly not fraud. I would have thought that every kickstarter creator will be aiming to make a profit and it's irrelevant what he wants to spend his profit on. Quite a few larger businesses have used kickstarter to launch products, not because they need to 'kickstart their business', but because it's an effective marketing strategy and will result in more profit. He might struggle to make and send the game as cheaply as he is aiming to though.

newnameforthis123 · 23/09/2020 22:32

@Msmcc1212

What is morally wrong about it?

I run my own business. People pay for my skills and ideas, not anything physically tangible.

When you buy something from a supermarket, you don't just pay for that item as such. You pay for the supermarkets marketing team, finance team, HR team, shop staff, systems, processes, business rates, legal costs etc etc.

If he wanted to start a charity he would have started a charity.

He didn't. He started a kickstarter campaign which means that people pledge an amount for a specific reward - in this case a game.

They are going to get the game they chose to pledge for. Nobody is missing out on anything they purchased.

It's ridiculous people are saying this is fraud / money laundering!

chubley · 23/09/2020 22:34

It can't be compared to the PTA, with that the leftover money would stay in the PTA fund to fund the next activity/project.

If it is part of his income he'll need to declare it as self-employed income in his tax return and pay tax on it if he earns over the threshold for the tax year.

allofthetings · 23/09/2020 22:36

I don't think it's morally wrong, you pays your money & takes your chances with Kickstarter

YeaSure · 23/09/2020 22:41

He is perfectly within his right to do this.

That's how kick starter works.

Plenty of campaigns supply the backers and don't produce more.

Oh and there are lots that get the funds and then fail to deliver anything and it's all fine and dandy based on the T&C.

MilkOfThePuppy · 23/09/2020 22:46

I don't see a problem, so long as people get their copy of the game. I don't think it's morally wrong, definitely not fraudulent.

slashlover · 23/09/2020 22:52

I've pledged for a card game before (Exploding Kittens!) it raised almost $9 million from over 200,000 backers. Do I think it cost them $9 million to make the card game? Of course not. Do I care where the extra money went? Of course not. I paid my $35 and I got my game. They continued on, I've seen the game for sale in shops and they started a kickstarter for a different game.

Are Sony fraudulent or morally wrong for taking preorders for the PS5? Are people entitled to know what Sony do with the profit from selling the PS5? If Sony took the money and then didn't deliver then that would be fraud, if they take the money then send the console on the date they say then it isn't fraud or money laundering.