To wonder whether Boris and his cronies give Eton a bad name.

[Dustballs]

I wonder whether schools like this will be affected negatively as a result?

Gone are the days where you could buy yourself a place with money and status

Yes - it's just money now. :)

Isn’t it a case that schools like Eton are able to fully ensure that their pupils are prepared for the intellectual environment of university to a degree that other schools aren’t? It isn’t, as someone said that Oxford is designed for Eton pupils ( not all tutors at Oxford attended the university as undergrads and this needs to be realised more). Rather, a system has evolved over time at the university and schools like Eton are very, very good at keeping up with all of the details involved in those changes. So, the curriculum is very rich and takes the exam as a part of learning but not the end result - instead a wide curriculum is given that encourages independent thinking and research and the resources are very close to hand. That in itself is not to be underestimated - physical and mental space are the greatest tools to aid learning in my mind and sports field's, libraries, debating clubs, a school hall (can be basic but it’s the space that counts) all give an environment that is conducive to developing ones self.

I taught in an excellent private school abroad that would be in a high league (very good legacy). All pupils were encouraged to engage in a physical activity (very important in my view). It could be team based like rugby or individual like archery but it was outdoor and physical. Every evening the pupils completed prep. They treated class time as time when they had to be quiet and work but could cope with this as all around them they had space to let off steam.

I really think we overlook the basics at times because the marketing of private schools is so good. In terms of learning however, the right attitude will always win through as we ensure that all of the resources are available publicly to non private pupils (local libraries stock periodicals/will order in books/local parks have posts for teams to play. We don’t see these things sadly (and they are starting to disappear) but that doesn’t mean they are not provided for. The principle of equality runs very deeply throughout education and there are lots of very privileged people who are aware of their privilege and know they they need to temper the balance.

@thedancingbear

I didn't say it was particularly hard. I said it was obscenely hard. I can't compare it to cheese furtling at Southampton (or whatever other shit course you did) because I didn't watch two of my closest friends in the world, and two of the cleverest people I've ever met, work and stress their arses off over a period of three years on those courses, in order just to survive. Maybe the cheese furtlers at southampton (12 UCAS points) are just as bright and find it just as difficult. I doubt it.

TBH you're just making a wally of yourself at this point.

It really upset you to have your deference to the hierarchy questioned. I don't accept your position so I obviously did a 'shit course'. This is how the system perpetuates itself - having made it into Oxford you are determined to maintain it as the pinnacle of academic achievement and lash out at anyone dares to question that, even resorting to personal insults. 'A wally' - not really an obscenely clever insult

It isn’t, as someone said that Oxford is designed for Eton pupils ( not all tutors at Oxford attended the university as undergrads and this needs to be realised more).

One other quick point on this notion of Oxford being designed' for your Borises et al^. A good mate of mine was briefly a tutor at an Oxford college and was involved in the undergrad admissions process. His reflection was that the tutors were, by and large, egalitarian lefties who would bend over backwards to let in bright kids from ordinary backgrounds. He also said that it was easy to tell the genuinely talented applicants from the well-coached ones.

But he also said that there was competition between (and therefore pressure within) the colleges to achieve the best results, and there was often a balancing act of taking in the state school kids they really wanted to teach, and the Etonians etc. who were already at third-year level as they had been so well-educated up to that point.

But apparently, because I don't know what the application process looks like for Tree Surgery at Chepstow, these insights are worthless.

It really upset you to have your deference to the hierarchy questioned.

I don't defer to the heirarchy, I think it's bollocks. I've made that clear upthread. But I also prefer to take people as I find them, and make judgements based on my own experiences.

I think the thing they look for is someone, regardless of background, who is genuinely engaged with the subject. Not someone who quotes the right things, just someone who genuinely has questions in their mind that they want to find answers to.

I don't know, they might be a good advertisment for Eton.

It shows that regardless of how shit, incompetent, unpleasant and uncaring your child is, send them to Eton and, despite all of the above, they'll still get a top job.

Was Fettes affected negatively by Tony Blair? I don't think so. Why would Eton be solely associated with Boris?

Cummings seems rather unpopular on here but I bet most people don't even know the name of the school he went to (until they read this and decide to Google).

@KenDodd

I don't know, they might be a good advertisment for Eton.

It shows that regardless of how shit, incompetent, unpleasant and uncaring your child is, send them to Eton and, despite all of the above, they'll still get a top job.

Or they could look at John Major and conclude that you can leave school at 16 and still get the top job.

Even with all the money in the world you have to have a spectacularly bright boy to gain entrance to Eton. The biggest barrier to entry isn't money. If your boy is bright enough they will make it happen.

@AriettyHomily

Just wondering if those that dismiss Eton or similar would refuse it if they could finance it?

I could afford it or another private boarding school and there is absolutely no way I'd send my kids there.

The toxicity which has come from that school particularly is astounding. The sooner private schools are either abolished or very heavily taxed (with the tax ring-fenced for state school benefit) the better.

All they do is to serve an elitist, unrealistic and totally entitled sector of society. This was highlighted in stark reality during the complete mess of the exams scandal in August - private school, get the grades predicted, state school get the grades our algorithm gives you.

@Gigglr that doesn't explain how a useless buffon like BJ got in.

private school, get the grades predicted state school get the grades our algorithm gives you
Private schools aren't to blame for that. If there's any failing with the state system, it's for the state to sort out.

We'd be in trouble if private schools were abolished. Who funds the extra school places? Why not instead focus on improving state education?

[quote TheNavigator]@Gigglr that doesn't explain how a useless buffon like BJ got in.[/quote]
He's academically very bright.

@SheepandCow

private school, get the grades predicted state school get the grades our algorithm gives you Private schools aren't to blame for that. If there's any failing with the state system, it's for the state to sort out.

We'd be in trouble if private schools were abolished. Who funds the extra school places? Why not instead focus on improving state education?

Exactly, abolishing isn't really realistic, but more idealistic.

However taxing them until they squeak is, then ringfencing those many millions for state schools...

Let's start by taking away the charitable status they enjoy and making them VAT registered.

@SheepandCow he's academically bright in terms of a particular system. That doesn't necessarily equal intelligence. Maybe Eton & Oxford are measuring the wrong thing? Or using flawed systems of measurement? It may shock some posters, but a system set up by rich white men that benefits rich white men is not necessarily an objective measure of ability.

Maybe Eton & Oxford are measuring the wrong thing? Or using flawed systems of measurement?

That's interesting. Would you be able to provide more detail on what they should be measuring instead? Or in what ways you think their system of measurement is flawed? If you can provide any objective evidence to support your views, that would make them more persuasive.

Maybe Eton & Oxford are measuring the wrong thing? Or using flawed systems of measurement?

One of the top universities in the world in terms of research.

The problem is that Boris et al are seen as representative of that system when they are not - they simply show one strand that comes through and is easy to identify. We just don't see (publicly) the thousands of others quietly getting on with their lives, making their contributions whichever way they can.

I know plenty of nice and normal men who went to Eton.

It's a mistake to judge a whole cohort of people by one individual.

@UntamedWisteria

I know plenty of nice and normal men who went to Eton.

It's a mistake to judge a whole cohort of people by one individual.

But the point is, that one individual is so obviously over promoted, based on his background- that is what is being judged. The system that prevents true meritocracy and facilitates the likes of BJ fucking up ov r and over again while ensuring they pull up the ladder. It holds us back as a country and society.

He's academically very bright.

He's not that bright, IMO, just very, very polished and confident. He got a first in the first part of his degree because all the Eton boys had read pretty much everything on that bit of the syllabus before they ever set foot in Oxford. The second part of the degree is the really tough bit, reckoned to separate sheep from goats and he only got a 2.1, which is good but not brilliant.

EQ, for a start, is something they don't measure. And perhaps in some way we should attempt to measure morality. We have a prime minister who will not answer the question "How many children do you have?". If we want true leaders we cannot elect men and woman who lack the basics of morality and expect them to lead for the common good.

Hmm. I read Classics at Oxford and I don't agree that it's 'obscenely difficult'. I do think that it probably indicates a certain level of intelligence though. And I certainly don't think Boris is stupid - just hateful. Unfortunately, being clever does not (on its own) make you a good prime minister.

My nephew went to Eton and is a nice and reasonably well-adjusted young man. Fairly intelligent, went on to get a degree and works for the civil service. My late MIL said that his parents her son and DIL) didn't have an old name or enough money to be in with the toffs!

To be fair to Boris, VeryQuaintIrene (I can't believe I'm being fair to Boris!!), I imagine he spent most of his life in the Union, and I should think his degree was significantly less important to him than his political ambitions. The fact that he didn't get a First doesn't mean he couldn't have got a First if it was his priority and he'd really worked for it. (Not saying he could have done, just that we'll never know.)