Pride and Prejudice

[Blackdog19]

Just watching the awesome Colin Firth P&P adaptation. When I first watched it as a teenager, I thought Mrs Bennett was the annoying ridiculous one. It took reading something for me to realise that Mr Bennett was as bad in his own way saving no money and leaving Mrs Bennett with the possibility of 5 unmarried daughters and no home. If I had read the book in Jane Austen’s do you think we’d have more initial sympathy with Mrs Bennett?

I have always believed Elizabeth to be a book lover but i can't remember why. I think she declares herself not a great reader because she knows that Caroline is insulting her by implying that she has limited interests and therefore rather dull.

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

Lizzie is pretty obviously meant to be bright, whatever the defects in her education.

Oh, she's certainly bright, and a witty, sharp conversationalist, but as a pp said, she in no way approaches Darcy's highly programmatic idea of a truly accomplished woman (well, Miss Bingley's, but he agrees) who needs 'a thorough knowledge of music, singing, drawing, dancing, and the modern languages', ' possess a certain something in her air and manner of walking, the tone of her voice, her address and expressions.'

“All this she must possess,” added Darcy, “and to all this she must yet add something more substantial, in the improvement of her mind by extensive reading."

Of course Austen is mocking 'bluestockings' by making Mary, the supposedly cleverest and the most musicianly of the girls, a pedantic bore who hasn't an original thought in her head and who never knows when to stop if she's allowed to play in public.

Presumably poor Mary, knowing she can't compete on looks with her sisters, has decided to go in for accomplishments without any particular intelligence or taste for music. Austen implies as much when, at the end of the novel, she's the only daughter left at home, which forces her away from her studies and out into company with her mother, and as she's no longer being unfavourably compared to her sisters in appearance, her father thinks she secretly prefers it.

(Interesting that Kitty 'spends the chief of her time with her two elder sisters' after Jane and Elizabeth marry, but not Mary? Is this because Kitty is marriageable, and Mary isn't?)

I can definitely see the Kitty character wanting to go and stay with her sisters, socialise and generally expand her horizons, whereas it doesn't seem like it would be Mary's preference.

Lidia is 15 when she goes of with Whikham isn't she. Obviously by the standards of the time letting your teenage daughter go to the seaside and galivant with soldiers was frowned upon - but to be honest Id judge a parent who allowed it now. And Wikham can't be much younger than 25. So by today's stanards his behavious is even worse (and Mrs Bennets willingness to overlook once they are married it is as bad now as then). I wouldnt be jumping for joy if my 15 year old was married of to someone who'd basically blackmailed my brother into paying him to do so.

Also, before this Wikham had attempted to seduce (basically grooming) Dary's younger sister when she was about 14. So he's a complete cad by todays standards as well as by the times.

Absolutely we are supposed to find Mrs Bennet's frivolous skipping ahead to the details of the trousseau appalling, but in fact, she has no choice but to be relieved and thankful Wickham actually marries Lydia, because the alternatives are far worse, and not just for Lydia, but for her entire family.

And remember Lydia was staying with her friend, the wife of one of the officers (himself a sensible man) and supposedly properly chaperoned -- and it would have been quite an ordinary thing for the Bennets to go to a watering place like Brighton as a family, which is what Lydia originally proposes. Even the well-bred and well-behaved Georgiana Darcy, the same age as Lydia, goes to another watering place, Ramsgate, with her chaperone (and only narrowly escapes the same fortune-hunter.)

Yes, it's an unwise decision by the parents, as Lizzy and Jane point out in advance, but even Lizzy, when she argues with her father about it, has no thought of anything more than Lydia becoming even more flirtatious and silly than at home.

@yetanothernamitynamechange

Also, before this Wikham had attempted to seduce (basically grooming) Dary's younger sister when she was about 14. So he's a complete cad by todays standards as well as by the times.

I looked this up, and in fact the common law age of consent for marriage in Regency England was fourteen for boys and twelve for girls, even though they would still be minors in law.

Lydia has just turned 16 by the time she marries Wickham, she's 15 for the first part of the book. Georgiana was 15 when Wickham seduced her. Wickham is around 28 - that's Darcy's age and he's supposed to be nearly the same, which is how Darcy explains knowing more about his character than his father did.

I've always thought that Darcy didn't really agree with Caroline's idea of an accomplished woman at all. Although he politely says that extensive reading should be added to her list, I thought what he really meant was that he didn't give a fuck about whether a woman was great at music, dancing, needlework, modern languages etc., what he really wanted was an intelligent woman. Of course, Caroline is too dim to pick up on the put down and would think he was agreeing with her.

@Eskers, there's no minimum age in large parts of the United States even today. I find it abhorrent but there are plenty of people who would defend it but still hate the idea of paedophilia. Meaning that just because marriage is legally allowed from a certain age doesn't make it socially acceptable at anything like that age.

Yes, but what I'm saying is that it's far less likely that Wickham has a sexual taste for underage girls than that he views them as more manipulable and accessible than older women they're an easy mark. The key difference for him is their finances, and that governs how he proceeds. He tries to elope with Georgiana Darcy in order to marry her before her guardians can find out, for her £30,000, which then becomes legally his he would not have bothered had she been under the legal age of marriage, because the marriage could have been voided and he would never have the money. Lydia he just takes along for sex on the side as he's escaping his debtors, as there's no financial inducement to marry her, until Darcy puts up the money.

Also it is Jane not Elizabeth who is the horsewoman in the family, that is why she goes to Netherfield to visit Jane on foot.

I thought it was because Mrs B had told Jane to take the horse to Netherfield and when she fell ill the horse was still stabled there ready for Jane's return. Only one horse, so Elizabeth had to walk.

@VeryLittleOwl no they must have had more horses than one, as when Lizzie says she wants to visit Jane, Mr Bennett says ‘I suppose this is a hint for me to send for the carriage’ which wouldn’t be possible if there were no horses

@JillGoodacre

Is also recommend reading Eligible by Curtis Sittenfeld

I was going to recommend this as well - its excellent!

@Eskers

Yes, but what I'm saying is that it's far less likely that Wickham has a sexual taste for underage girls than that he views them as more manipulable and accessible than older women they're an easy mark. The key difference for him is their finances, and that governs how he proceeds. He tries to elope with Georgiana Darcy in order to marry her before her guardians can find out, for her £30,000, which then becomes legally his he would not have bothered had she been under the legal age of marriage, because the marriage could have been voided and he would never have the money. Lydia he just takes along for sex on the side as he's escaping his debtors, as there's no financial inducement to marry her, until Darcy puts up the money.

I agree with this. There's that awkward moment when Wickham thinks Lydia is 16 and Lizzy corrects him that she's 15. Her age was a factor for him, but I don't think because she was underage.

This thread cost me 3 book uploads to my kindle

I love Alison Steadmans portrait of Mrs B but I always felt that Jane was too plain to the much prettier Lizzie and in the books Jane was a great beauty I feel they had that the wrong way around
I think they had to give Lucy Scott such a severe hair style to plain her down as yes she is gorgeous and Charlotte was plain

I always assumed that they hired the carriage (a bit like a taxi) and Mrs B didn’t want to spend the money. But I may have interpreted it incorrectly.

@Enko

This thread cost me 3 book uploads to my kindle

I love Alison Steadmans portrait of Mrs B but I always felt that Jane was too plain to the much prettier Lizzie and in the books Jane was a great beauty I feel they had that the wrong way around
I think they had to give Lucy Scott such a severe hair style to plain her down as yes she is gorgeous and Charlotte was plain

Yes, that's one area where I thought the 2005 film was better than the 1995 tv version. The book is very clear that Jane is out of Lizzie's league beautiful, but the 1995 version (whether thorough the actresses' natural looks, or make up, hair and so on I don't know) made Lizzie the prettier one. I thought the 2005 film got that fairly accurate - both are good looking, but Jane is stunning and Lizzie is not.

[quote Iamclearlyamug]@VeryLittleOwl no they must have had more horses than one, as when Lizzie says she wants to visit Jane, Mr Bennett says ‘I suppose this is a hint for me to send for the carriage’ which wouldn’t be possible if there were no horses[/quote]
Yes, and we're told that 'as the carriage was not to be had, and Elizabeth was no horsewoman, walking was her only alternative.'

Interesting that Jane rides and Elizabeth, who is lighter and more active than Jane, doesn't, when they clearly have horses that are at least sometimes available for riding, rather than farm or carriage work? (I would have said that carriage horses were going to be different horses to horses you'd use for ploughing etc, but it seems not so at Longbourn?)

Also, if Jane is invited to dinner with the Bingley sisters, and rides over, presumably she wears a riding habit and brings something more suitable to change into with her?

I really enjoyed 'Longbourne' by Jo Baker - it's 'Pride and Prejudice' written from the point of view of the servants. It puts Mr Bennet in a whole new light...

That is a very good read, it refers to things I'd never even considered when reading this kind of book, who does all the nastier jobs, especially with 5 daughters in a house!

Eskers I think the availability of horses and the fact they have to be used for different tasks is an indication of how the Bennets are gentry but in straightened circumstances. In a more affluent household you would have more horses and they wouldn't have to multitask...

Interesting point about why Elizabeth doesn't ride. I think it might be just one of those things in a large family where there aren't infinite resources - the horse is available only a limited amount, Jane got started earlier because she was older so when the horse has time Jane's the one who gets to ride?

@Eskers yes I agree. He probably isnt a paedophile exactly, but targets girls that age because he can manipluate them. Which is probably still true for a lot of older men that start relationships with teenagers today. I think his motives for targetting Lidia are even worse than just looking for sex on the side. Its at least partly as revenge against Elizabeth for turning against him when she finds out the truth of him and Darcy - so he decides to effectively ruin his sister and the entire family. Hes an awful person, but also actually completely believable.

Re: Jane and Lizzy’s looks in the 1995 casting - that was period accurate. Susannah Harker had a “classically Grecian” look, which was highly favoured in the era, whereas Jennifer Ehle’s look wouldn’t have been seen as quite so attractive.

Not sure I agree even for those times, but it didn’t work in modern times that Lizzie was the more conventionally beautiful.

Rosamund Pike far better casting for Jane.

That is a very good read, it refers to things I'd never even considered when reading this kind of book, who does all the nastier jobs, especially with 5 daughters in a house!

It also suggests how the Bingley's made their money.

[quote yetanothernamitynamechange]@Eskers yes I agree. He probably isnt a paedophile exactly, but targets girls that age because he can manipluate them. Which is probably still true for a lot of older men that start relationships with teenagers today. I think his motives for targetting Lidia are even worse than just looking for sex on the side. Its at least partly as revenge against Elizabeth for turning against him when she finds out the truth of him and Darcy - so he decides to effectively ruin his sister and the entire family. Hes an awful person, but also actually completely believable.[/quote]
I've never really read the seduction of Lydia as a conscious revenge on Wickham's part. I've always seen Lydia as the one who essentially proposed the elopement as a bit of a giggle, or that W told her he needed to escape his debtors in Brighton and she was disgusted he was leaving and insisted on coming too, so he went along with it for a bit of no-strings-attached sex, benefiting from the sexual double standards of his day.

Yes, Darcy does say in his letter to Elizabeth that he thinks Wickham was revenging himself on him when he tried to elope with Georgiana, but there was that £30,000 as an inducement there, too. I'm not sure it would have been worth Wickham's while without it -- yes, he'd have 'ruined' the sister of his enemy, but he'd also have had a very powerful, wealthy man bent on his destruction and nothing to show for it.

(And that, I suppose is the other main difference between an adult man targeting a teenage girl today and in Austen's day -- few of them have large personal fortunes, and those fortunes do not legally become entirely their husband's on marriage.)

It's interesting to think about what Darcy would have done had the Wickham-Georgiana marriage actually gone ahead as planned. Found them and taken Georgiana home to Pemberley? Set her up somewhere obscure with a companion, like Maria Bertram with Aunt Norris in Mansfield Park (especially if there's the possibility of pregnancy)? I'm not sure what legal remedies there would have been as the marriage would have been valid, and I imagine the £30,000 was irretrievably gone...?

Mrs Bennet thinks Mr B is going to challenge Wickham to a duel, so is that a real possibility for Darcy? It was perfectly legal, I think.