Pride and Prejudice

[Blackdog19]

Just watching the awesome Colin Firth P&P adaptation. When I first watched it as a teenager, I thought Mrs Bennett was the annoying ridiculous one. It took reading something for me to realise that Mr Bennett was as bad in his own way saving no money and leaving Mrs Bennett with the possibility of 5 unmarried daughters and no home. If I had read the book in Jane Austen’s do you think we’d have more initial sympathy with Mrs Bennett?

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I am clearly alone in the world in finding Colin Firth's Darcy not wildly appealing (particularly when wet or emotionally-engaged) and kind of constipated-looking?

No you're not. Can't say I could see what all the fuss was about either.

I hate it. It’s Andrew Davies’s fault. As if Darcy would jump in a lake, fgs.

@FinallyHere

marriage was as much a business contract as a love match.

Plenty of evidence on MN (as current as it's possible to get) that many do not realise that this remains the case.

So many women who didn't understand how vulnerable they have made themselves, having put their ability to earn a living on hold in order to have DC with someone, without any legally enforceable contract such as marriage to provide some protection

Others from women who find themselves the financially stronger partner, whose circumstances are very different.

Marriage was, is and always will be as much a business contract as an outward sign of love between two people

Absolutely, was and is, only now you're considered mercenary and cold for considering the financial implications of a marriage, even though about two thirds of the posts in the Relationships forum hinge on access to money/women who have compromised their earning ability by becoming SAHMs/women who are being financially abused and have no money to leave.

@CaptainMyCaptain

I think *@Pipandmum*'s daughter needs a history lesson in how women in the 21st Century came to this happy situation (and it is still not so happy for everyone) and how marrying 'for love' is luxury that was denied to both men and women throughout most of human history.

Hear hear.

(And more people who do not fancy Colin Firth's soggy Darcy, hooray. )

Why do we think Darcy, who is a crashing snob, hung out so much with new-money Bingley, anyway?

I don't think he was a snob as such. Perhaps slightly socially awkward, he was probably sick of women throwing themselves at him because of his money and social standing.

He didn't like Mrs Bennet and the younger sisters because of their behaviour in public. It only made the divide in social class more obvious, but I don't think that was the discerning factor in ignoring his growing feelings towards to Elizabeth. That's made quite clear in his proposal. I think he was probably wary of gold diggers, but it turned him on that Elizabeth didn't give him the 'respect' that he thought his status deserved.

There's a good book called 'Jane Austen- The Secret Radical' that goes a bit further into this. There's so much in the manners and mores of Georgian society that modern readers don't quite get, for obvious reasons.

He is totally a snob, in the sense that he's extremely conscious of his social position, family pride etc. When he first proposes to Elizabeth, he couches it largely in terms of his attraction to her having to overcome the difference in their social positions:

His sense of her inferiority—of its being a degradation—of the family obstacles which had always opposed to inclination, were dwelt on with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding, but was very unlikely to recommend his suit.

And after she rejects him, he says:

Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections?—to congratulate myself on the hope of relations, whose condition in life is so decidedly beneath my own?”

And he's not unconscious of Bingley's social inferiority to him, either when he admits to scheming with the Bingley sisters to get Bingley away to London, he says that the 'want of connection' of the Bennet girls 'could not be so great an evil to my friend as to me' Bingley's father made his money in trade -- but he still thinks Jane is too socially inferior for Bingley.

As we have just finished Downton Abbey which had the same issue it is obviously not just of that time

Pipandmum and Sally - it’s still the case. There are titled families with daughters and no son and so the title will go to the nearest male heir (who may be a very distant cousin living in Australia)
There are some families where this is the case who are fighting to get it changed so the eldest daughter can inherit.
Whether the property goes with the title varies from family to family.

Absolutely, male preference primogeniture is still the absolute rule for the UK aristocracy.

Though, in an interesting contrast, the uk succession to the crown act 2013 changed to inheritance by the eldest child, regardless of sex.

There was a flurry in the media about the potential impact of gender transition on inheritance.

@Plesky

He is totally a snob, in the sense that he's extremely conscious of his social position, family pride etc. When he first proposes to Elizabeth, he couches it largely in terms of his attraction to her having to overcome the difference in their social positions:

His sense of her inferiority—of its being a degradation—of the family obstacles which had always opposed to inclination, were dwelt on with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding, but was very unlikely to recommend his suit.

And after she rejects him, he says:

Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections?—to congratulate myself on the hope of relations, whose condition in life is so decidedly beneath my own?”

And he's not unconscious of Bingley's social inferiority to him, either when he admits to scheming with the Bingley sisters to get Bingley away to London, he says that the 'want of connection' of the Bennet girls 'could not be so great an evil to my friend as to me' Bingley's father made his money in trade -- but he still thinks Jane is too socially inferior for Bingley.

That's interesting. I hadn't picked up on the bit about not so great an evil. But of course the Bennets, on the paternal line at least, in some ways outrank the Bingleys. Not money, obv, but they're an older gentry family. Obviously nobody around them seemed to see it that way though.

Yes I was just thinking that OpenlyGay ! Why are they so apparently low down on the scale when Mr Bennet is a 'gentleman' (doesn't have to work) and the estate is substantial enough for someone to have organised an entail on it at one point. And they are 'the first family' in their village. OK, they're not so rich as the Bingleys and Darcys, but why are they to be looked down upon?

Do you think it could all be because of Mrs Bennet, who obviously came from lower down the social scale? Seems a bit harsh! Surely she would take on her husband's status? (Even though her behaviour is often inappropriate.)

Compare this to 'Poldark', set around the same period. Demelza was the daughter of a miner, and yet she seems to be acceptable in polite society after marrying Ross. Yes, there are a few digs from snobs but mainly all seems fine. (Of course that was actually written in the 20th century).

I think Austen is making a point that society at her time was changing: money is coming to replace class as the main determiner of status, but it's still a battle between the two. Jane is considered by Darcy to be unsuitable for Bingley even though she's of a higher class than him. The one outstanding champion of class is Lady Catherine, who is portrayed as old-fashioned. The Gardiners are looked down on by the (female) Bingleys even though they're equal in class, it's only money that separates them.

Mr Gardiner is in trade, and it seems his parents were middle class so he is fairly far below the Bingleys, who's grandfather (iirc) made his money through trade. Bingley has been raised as a gentleman, and (again iirc) his father was too, so they are far enough removed from earning their fortune to be considered upper class.

Now I have a 17yo, imagining having 5 girls in the early 1800s and no money or house when Mr B does. I have so much more sympathy for Mrs Bennett!

*dies - bloody autocorrect.

I've always had Darcy down as a bit of an intellectual snob, rather than a traditional snob. Not that his friend Bingley seemed particularly bright, but perhaps Bingley's kindness of heart and simplicity appealed to a more complex man.

Darcy doesn't appear to venerate wealth - he avoids a planned marriage with the wealthy Anne de Bourg, and he seems to avoid the Bingley sisters for the most part, certainly evading or seeing through Caroline's attempts to capture him. They are relatively rich, if nouveaux.

Perhaps he venerates breeding more, but it doesn't make him want to court cousin Anne, and I've always thought he disliked Lady Catherine, who is technically highly bred (though in reality she's one of the rudest, ill-bred, people in the book).

He doesn't need to marry for money so even before falling in love with Elizabeth, he could have married anyone he chose, and yet he didn't. He presumably, with his wealth and connections, could also win a highly bred wife, and yet he hasn't. He hints at high standards when Elizabeth is reading at Netherfield. He's obviously dismissive of the less intelligent - Mrs B, Mr C, Sir William Lucas; but IIRC he's respectful towards Charlotte Lucas at Rosings, who is intelligent.

I think he's looking for someone to meet him on an intellectual level, but perhaps he doesn't realise it at the start.

From character theory - an author will typically give a character a want and a need and preferably have them opposed to each other for added tension and comedy. They will be aware of the want but probably unaware of the need. What were Darcy's wants and needs?

Makes me want to read it all over again!
Loved the Colin Firth BBC adaptation as a teenager and yes fell into the trap of thinking Mrs Bennett as being silly and irritating but now 30 years on have a lot of sympathy for her character and think Mr Bennett is more at fault, he is unkind and dismissive towards her and his younger daughters , retreats to his library, washing his hands of Mrs Bennetts valid concerns about their daughters futures after his death.

Dozens of times I must've read that book, and I pretty much wore out our video of the 95 adaptation, but I'd never even picked up on Darcy not being snobbish or disrespectful to Charlotte (who, I am more and more convinced, is probably the smartest character in that book). Such an interesting point.

The insights coming from this thread are a wow. Some of my cherished theories pooh poohed, others strengthened, completely new ideas... love it!

The Bingleys grandfather was in trade, but so was their father. The current generation is the first to be raised to not work, but even then they're still getting their income from trade. Bingley doesn't even own an estate until the last chapter. So he's definitely below the Bennets landed gentry status under the traditional system, and on a level with the Gardiners. But under the new system, his money more than compensates for that.

The Bennets are above the Bingleys socially, they are landed gentry, but they are on the bottom rung of the ladder. They have a moderate income, but don't have any important connections, and their only close relatives seem to be on Mrs Bennets side, so below them. Mr Bennet never goes to London and doesn't mix with anyone of interest to social climbers, and they have country habits and manners, aside from Jane and Elizabeth who can pretty much pass themselves in any company. Added to that is the fact that Mrs Bennet is vulgar and loud, and very clearly on the hunt for rich husbands for her daughters. None of this is attractive to the Bingleys who are new money and as such need to choose their friends wisely if they want to keep moving up in society. You can hardly wonder at Caroline wishing for Bingley to marry Georgiana, that would really cement the family's position. I agree with a pp who said that Darcy is an intellectual snob, he has no tolerance for fools, or silly behaviour. No wonder he abhorrs Mrs Bennet!

Do you think it could all be because of Mrs Bennet, who obviously came from lower down the social scale? Seems a bit harsh! Surely she would take on her husband's status?

Well, Darcy distinguishes 'the situation of your mother's family' from the Bennets themselves as one of the strikes against the Bingley-Jane match in his post-proposal letter, and so does Lady Catherine, when she shows up to forbid Lizzy from marrying Darcy. Lizzy says that Darcy is a gentleman and she is a gentleman's daughter, and Lady C acknowledges that this is true, but says 'But who was your mother? Who are your uncles and aunts? Do not imagine me ignorant of their condition.'

It seems that Mrs Bennet's marriage has only raised her so far from her origins.

I think he's looking for someone to meet him on an intellectual level, but perhaps he doesn't realise it at the start.

I don't know - Lizzy is what her father terms 'quick', an able conversationalist and observant, but she says herself she's not a great reader (the only time we see her reading is to avoid the high-stakes card table at Netherfield, I think?) and that the Bennet girls' education was pretty laissez-faire -- compared to Darcy, and like most women of her time, she's pretty uneducated.

I agree that Elizabeth is not particularly well educated; her parents neglected their daughter's education and left them to their own devices. It is actually her sister Mary who is considered 'the most accomplished girl of the neighbourhood'. And she is the most studious: 'I should infinitely prefer a book'.

Elizabeth is not a particularly accomplished musician either and admits it herself at Rosings. She would not qualify as one of the 'only six truly accomplished women' Darcy claims to know

Also it is Jane not Elizabeth who is the horsewoman in the family, that is why she goes to Netherfield to visit Jane on foot.

I think that all this can be surprising for some modern readers as well as contemporary ones, who are used to heroines being portrayed as paragons of excellence naturally outshining those around them. Do you think Austen deliberately drew Elizabeth this way, and why?

I hate it. It’s Andrew Davies’s fault. As if Darcy would jump in a lake, fgs.

But for some reason it's one of those ones things that I remember where and when I saw it. I was 13, in the living room, watching with my big sister.

This was the live showing on BBC One by the way, in 1995.

Elizabeth may not be learned, but she her conversations show she is clearly an original thinker, quick-witted and observant, and thinks about the world around her. She's taken the lessons of her 'university of life'.

Mary, for all her book-learning, was slow. Her thoughts are not original, but borrowed from the books she studied.

I know which I'd prefer to marry.

Lizzie is pretty obviously meant to be bright, whatever the defects in her education.

Really interesting thread, thanks OP!