Reporting dangerous dogs?

[LondonLassi]

Something has been on my mind for a few days after hearing about the poor 12 day old baby who died after being attacked by a dog.

My sister’s neighbour has a 16 year old son who is regularly in trouble with the police. I spend a lot of time there. The screaming and shouting that comes from next door is horrendous and the police are often called out to restrain him. He is not in school. Smokes weed all day. I’ve never seen his face because he wears a hoodie over a face covering (even pre-COVID) I’m just trying to paint a picture of the kind of troubled youth we’re dealing with here. If you make eye contact with him he will swear at you, call you names and threaten you. He is quite frankly a bit scary.

About a year ago they got two puppies from the same litter. They are fully grown now and they look like some sort of pit bull cross. Possibly pit bull/mastiff. They are huge. I’ll attach a pic of what I think they might be. When we sit out in the garden we can hear them next door fighting and growling, they barge my sisters fence to try to get to her small jack Russell terriers. They’ve had to repair the fence three times already after the dogs broke it.

This boy walks the dogs regularly. They are not muzzled. If we happen to leave the house at the same time the dogs go up on their hind legs and get very over excited. The boy has to pull them back to get them away. They try to break free to get to anyone walking near them if they’re out for a walk. Tonight we happened to be leaving as the boy was walking home. The dogs immediately started barking at us and were trying to run towards us and had to be restrained. We often hear people shouting when they walk by because of the dogs trying to get to them. It’s very scary when it happens because they are big and intimidating.

I am terrified of what would happen if these dogs managed to get loose. They have been raised by someone with a violent, anti social background. I can’t shake the image of them getting hold of a child. The boy has a little brother in the house, probably around 6 years old.

What would you do in this situation? I’m thinking of reporting them as potentially dangerous dogs. If IABU please tell me. It just seems like an awful attack waiting to happen.

@Tadpolesandfroglets
Or could it be the main stay of MN are middle class ladies who seem incapable of seeing anything outside their bubble, again incapable of debate expect everyone to agree.

@Dogsarebetterthanpeople

The majority of ‘stats’ are from America where the American Pit Bull terrier is an actual recognised breed. In the UK there is no such thing.

Whether or not a breed is actually recognised by a particular body or not is not that relevant (genetic testing seems more accurate than any breed standard whether set by an official body, a government or the rescue centres) and the picture in America with respect to what is considered a pit bull type is far more complex than you suggest.

I think this makes for relevant and nuanced reading.

As you are in the minority SBT, could it be that you are in the wrong and think you are an expert when you are clearly not?
She might be in the minority of average people on this thread but she’s clearly not in the minority overall when you consider that no large, reputable animal organisation in the UK supports Breed Specific Legislation/the idea that bull breeds are inherently more dangerous.

Not the RSPCA
Or the British Veterinary Association
Or the Dogs Trust
Or the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Or Battersea cat and dog home
Or Bluecross
Or the pet professional guild
Or the Association of pet dog trainers

But the average person knows better clearly.

@Dogsarebetterthanpeople
Thank you 😉🐶
I think my frustration is the lack of any kind of acknowledgement that other ppl might have different knowledge or facts or experience. The campaigns for the repeal of the DDA have been ongoing for years but obviously haven’t reached MN land.

@SBTLove

if OP had stuck to the point about these two dogs rather her nonsense about an entire range of dogs

You mean the entire range of pit bull type dogs for which there is ample evidence of a statistically higher rate of dangerous and lethal behaviour? Not just in the US but in the U.K.?

I understand that there is controversy with regards to the evidence because the evidence does not explain the cause for the behaviour, only that these types of dog are disproportionately represented in fatal dog attacks.

Until, however, there is a proper licensing scheme which, in my opinion should be graded so that only experienced and qualified owners/breeders can own dogs that can, by their size and bearing, cause greater harm in far less time than smaller breeds, then I support the hammer to crack a nut approach of banning certain breeds.

No, I don’t think it is fair or just, however I don’t think it’s fair or just for dogs to be owned by the countless poor owners who do not train them sufficiently. I think animals that can kill (including small dogs that can kill babies) should be licensed, just like firearms.

Non of my opinions are relevant to the OPs problem or her quite understandable concern about pit bull type dogs and the type of owner they can attract.

@Dogsarebetterthanpeople

It is interesting that your list:

Not the RSPCA
Or the British Veterinary Association
Or the Dogs Trust
Or the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Or Battersea cat and dog home
Or Bluecross
Or the pet professional guild
Or the Association of pet dog trainers

Only contains bodies whose interests are only concerned with the welfare of dogs.

When you come to me with a list of people that deal with the deaths and maiming caused to children and adults (the bereaved, the witnesses, the plastic surgeons, Coroners, police, doctors and nurse etc.) the people who actually hear the screams of agony, who suffer the tearing of their own flesh and, if they are ‘lucky’ survive with life long injuries, when those people come out in support of removing the blunt protection that is available from the dogs able to inflect the worst type of damage, then maybe I will listen.

I'm a little confused OP? I've gone through the thread - you said that the police are there and involved, I'm presuming social services are also involved at no point would you presume that if they were dangerous dogs that one of these authorities would've removed them from the premises? Police don't do all of there work outside of houses, even if they didn't enter the house social services/community support officers would have. This is something the would've checked out.
From reading the thread it is clear that you did have a bias against any bull breed dogs which is supported by you saying well I'm not an expert etc. I personally feel that you want to 'get back' at your sisters neighbours because you don't approve of them as a family but that's a separate point.
Fact is that if they were suspected banned breeds or dangerous with the level of involvement the police and community support would have with this family they would've been removed by now

@SBT

Can you at least admit that in the UK the breed type responsible for the highest number of FATAL attacks is bull. Quite a high number were SBT's or X SBT's and also Pit Bull crosses.

When you come to me with a list of people that deal with the deaths and maiming caused to children and adults (the bereaved, the witnesses, the plastic surgeons, Coroners, police, doctors and nurse etc.) the people who actually hear the screams of agony, who suffer the tearing of their own flesh and, if they are ‘lucky’ survive with life long injuries, when those people come out in support of removing the blunt protection that is available from the dogs able to inflect the worst type of damage, then maybe I will listen.
Unsurpringly, non dog organisations like the NHS don’t tend to comment on matters relating to dogs.
That is, as you would expect left to organisations who actually deal with dogs..

However, there is this from the government which finds insufficient evidence to support the breed ban within the Dangerous dog act

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmenvfru/1040/1040.pdf

And this from the NHS which states breed is not thought to be an indicator of risk by experts. Experts being the operative word there. Not dog bite victims (who are not dog experts) or doctors (who are also not dog experts)
www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/documents/888/CDR%5FDOGBITESSUMMARY%5FFINAL2.pdf

This is an article about an NHS therapy dog. A bull breed

www.bfwh.nhs.uk/pat-dog-blog-issue-1/

www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-events/media-centre/press-releases/be-dog-safe/
Press release including statements from NHS surgeons.
No mention of bull breeds.

@Dogsarebetterthanpeople

You're posting pointless links. I don't think anyone on here has stated that all bull breed dogs are aggressive or that they don't like them. What many have said is that in the situation described by they op they would report the dogs.

The fact is that certain breeds of dog can cause far more harm than others, which is clearly evident when looking at the UK stats on fatal dog attacks.

If it turns out they are not a cross with a banned breed and the police or whoever deems them to be well looked after and safe then fair enough.

I don't think anyone on here has stated that all bull breed dogs are aggressive or that they don't like them
I think the endless links and comments about pits very much do insinuate that imo

What many have said is that in the situation described by they op they would report the dogs
If the OP feels threatened then yes she should report.
It’s not so much the reporting over their behaviour that people are taking offence to but the insinuation that they must be dangerous because they are bull breed and because they have a troubled owner.

The fact is that certain breeds of dog can cause far more harm than others
Agreed, except that many of the biggest and most potentially aggressive (and legal!) are not bull breeds...

which is clearly evident when looking at the UK stats on fatal dog attacks
Equally, there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that deprivation is a far bigger indicator of risk.

@SBTLove it’s almost impossible to have a rational conversation with some people about bull breeds without the hysteria which is usually attached.

Deed not breed.

Not a huge dog person but while I am sometimes wary of big tough dogs walking by, I'd be absolutely shocked if that's what this is apart. Op, you talked about the boy for so long in your op I thought you'd named the thread incorrectly. Theres a chance, even subconsciously, that this boy gets to you so much that you just want to get to him. The boy restrained him. You dont say he laughed or gave you a look as some people who are out for trouble do. People on the thread who couldn't in good conscience allow that dog to be on the loose, or believe all those dogs to be trouble, do you report them all? Do you assume every single one will maim a child?

The boy restrained him. You dont say he laughed or gave you a look as some people who are out for trouble do.

sorry I don't think you've read the whole thread.

@MetalDog AMAZING response! Thank you so much 💐

@stayathomer maybe read the full thread. I LITERALLY said he laughs while they lunge at people.

Think it’s unfair to judge the dogs based on appearance. Jack Russell’s are much more aggressive and likely to bite than any bully breed

@ToughLoveLDN read the full thread. Please.

@SBTLove and @Dogsarebetterthanpeople

My views and facts are related only to the dogs relevant to the OPs post, specifically pit bull type dogs that are illegal in the U.K., not other bull dogs that are not.

I understand that the current legislation is contentious but the pit bull type was made illegal for a reason. Whilst people will argue back and forth about whether this was the best approach to deal with the fact that it is disproportionately responsible for the significant majority of fatal dog attacks (hence being banned here) unless things change with respect to licensing and, in my view mandatory training and a level of experience and demonstrable competence with respect to dog ownership, then these dogs should, in my view, remain banned.

What does it matter that many pit bull type dogs can be wonderful dogs when in good hands if there is no one that is going to ensure that they are only allowed in good hands?

Non of this is the dogs fault, but would you really be happy to roll back the ban whilst dogs are so often bought as a fashion accessory, be that ‘cute’ dogs with BOAS to muscle dogs bought for the status and intimidation? Even if you think dogs are better than people what about the lives of those dogs kept by people who will abuse them to create for themselves a ‘weaponised‘ dog?

If you genuinely cared for these breeds as much as you suggest then why not approach the OP in a way that gently educates? Instead you come here and mock and deride trying to ‘other’ the OP instead of reaching out and encouraging the OP to understand the broader issues as well as acknowledging her entirely legitimate concerns.

You are welcome @LondonLassi there was nothing that you said that I found offensive, you remained factual and tried to be as tactful as possible about the family your sister lives next door to and what she and you have experienced from the lad and his enjoyment in sparking fear with his lunging dogs. Whatever the outcome you have every right, and more importantly, sound reasons, to report these dogs to people who can then carry out an assessment.

@SBTLove very interesting article about Battersea Dogs & Cats home. The figures are heartbreaking, especially because these are only figures from one rescue centre. Interesting that they use the term ‘temperament and aggressive nature’ as if it is something that is inherent. It’s also funny how they acknowledge the problem with them being very much a part of gang culture. Seems like they are just as judgemental and prejudiced as I am.

They are referring to dogs seized from gangs
Obviously an ex gang dog is unlikely to be able to be placed in a family home!

If you’d researched a little more thoroughly you’d know that Battersea (along with every other big uk dog organisation) is OPPOSED to breed specific legislation and is (amongst others) campaigning for it to be repealed.

www.battersea.org.uk/battersea-report-kick-starts-heated-debate-about-banned-breeds

@Dogsarebetterthanpeople Did I say they weren’t? I very much doubt a rescue centre is in favour of destroying any kind of animal. So you agree that dogs raised by unsuitable owners (ie, gangs..thugs) are dogs unsuitable for a family home? Like a family that has a six year old? Also, you lot have all made out that banned breeds are so incredibly rare, it’s funny how 321 of them were destroyed in one year at just one centre alone 🤔

Did I say they weren’t? I very much doubt a rescue centre is in favour of destroying any kind of animal
You insinuated that Battersea were in agreement with you that bull breeds were aggressive and dangerous.
That couldn’t be further from the truth.

So you agree that dogs raised by unsuitable owners (ie, gangs..thugs) are dogs unsuitable for a family home? Like a family that has a six year old?
A dog that has been socially isolated from puppyhood (to make it fearful and likely to be aggressive), rewarded for any hint of aggression (actual aggression, not jumping and barking) and often beaten, is worlds away from two dogs regularly walked and kept held back when they are lunging about.

Worlds apart.

You said about the police being on the front lawn, but if the dogs successfully broke through a wooden fence, do you not think if they were truly as big and strong and as aggressive as you say they wouldn’t have made an almighty racket and damaged the door in their desperation to get outside and protect their owner..?
You don’t think the police would have seized the dogs for that kind of behaviour?

You mentioned social services, were they always on the front lawn too?
You don’t think two big, highly aggressive dogs would have gone for strangers (social services) in their home..?

Don’t you think if that had happened social services would have reported the dogs to the police..?

The reality is, you have two dogs of a big strong breed owned by a man that you can’t stand.
Because the man behaves dangerously you assume the dogs must be too.
It doesn’t work like that.

You’ve said the dogs sound like they are fighting in the garden, that they have damaged the fence rushing against it and that they bark and lunge at people.

Whilst I can definitely see how that kind of behaviour could be frightening, it does not necessarily indicate aggression.

The fact that police and social services are heavily involved with this family and never removed the dogs says a lot.

Also, you lot have all made out that banned breeds are so incredibly rare, it’s funny how 321 of them were destroyed in one year at just one centre alone
Those 321 dogs could be a mix of so many breeds.
And let’s not forget, over 60% of those dogs Battersea were confident could have been rehomed as family pets.

There is no such thing as a ‘pit bull terrier’ in the UK.
The concept of a ‘pit bull’ as a banned breed is absolute nonsense as there’s no such breed.
I truly don’t understand why it’s such a difficult concept.
Any dog that meets the measurements and looks staffy like is classed as type.
That could be any dog crossed with any sort of bull breed.

At 1, my border collie would pull at the lead out of excitement, and also because she wanted to run up to everyone and get attention and petting.

There is a dog in the neighbours yard who will bark and bark, in what sounds lik an aggressive way, whenever my dog is in the garden playing ball with me etc. Have spoken to the owners and they say it's because the dog is angry about the fence, he wants to come and meet my dog and play ball with us too.

deprivation is a far bigger indicator of risk.

As is the case with humans too. We generally don't say that people who come from a demographic that commit more violent crimes than others, do so because they belong to x demographic, in that it's inherent to them, something they cannot help. We look at what other factors have played a role - and socialisation and not being deprived of opportunities and parenting is important for both dogs and humans.