Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be a bit disappointed year 9 dd is in bottom set for maths?

149 replies

awaywiththecircus · 06/09/2020 12:39

Dd goes to a grammar school. She loves school, cried when it shut for lockdown and was excited to go back.
I know I’m being unreasonable as Dd is definitely no maths whizz. It’s not something that comes easily to her but she gets there in the end. I’m the same so don’t know why it’s bothered me. Her older brother (15) is brilliant at maths and going to do further maths GCSE and A level. Please talk some sense into me.

OP posts:
NotAKaren · 06/09/2020 16:14

I understand your concerns OP but from experience I would say that this is an opportunity for her to gain confidence and fill any gaps before decisions made in which paper she will take at GCSE. I pushed for DD to take the higher as she was borderline believing foundation was too limiting at 5. In hindsight it was too ambitious and the additional tutoring, workload and stress involved was not worth it. Ideally there would be an intermediate paper for average students as the gap between foundation and higher is quite a lot. Who wants to sit a higher paper unable to attempt many of the questions. There is still time, be positive and perhaps being top of a bottom set is better than being bottom of the top might be better for your DD.

aintnothinbutagstring · 06/09/2020 16:16

I can't imagine grammar schools these days entering their students into the lower foundation paper if they can help it, it'd do nothing for their league table standing. The worst case scenario is those kids in the 'lower' sets will get a lower grade on the higher paper. You have to remember some of these kids will have had tons of tutoring to get into grammar and often that tutoring has to continue all the way through grammar in order to just keep up (from what I've heard of friends who do this). You don't invest that money and time for your DC to get a grade 4 or 5 at GCSE. Yes many careers don't need maths, but grammar school parents have that mindset that it'll be a passport to the higher level careers that often do.

Bobbybobbins · 06/09/2020 16:16

@Shimy

I teach a small group for English where half the class have grade 1/2 targets (E/F). The rest are grade 3 (D grade). These are kids who are either EAL, learning difficulties or just find English really hard and so didn't achieve expected level at primary school.

To give you an example, most cannot use full stops and capital letters correctly at age 15. They know the theory and we have covered it many many times - they just cannot do it consistently. That is one example of why their targets are so low.

They are all lovely, hardworking kids. I wish I could wave a magic wand and get them the grade 4s they all want.

DodgeRainClouds · 06/09/2020 16:18

I was in a higher set than I should have been. No idea why I was never moved. People in lower sets got better gcse results than me as they did an easier paper where the highest result you could get was a C. I did a harder paper and really struggled and got an E!

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 06/09/2020 16:20

Grammar schools don't really have a bottom set imo.

I was going to say this. Many years ago admittedly but I was in the bottom set of a private school for Maths - two sets, top and bottom back then. The bottom set still took the higher paper and we all got Bs and a few As at GCSE. None of us were real mathematicians and we couldn't have made the leap to A-level but we did fine

GlassInEachHand · 06/09/2020 16:41

It's a grammar school - the lower sets will still be expected to get good grades, but the pace of teaching will be different.

Theresomethingaboutdairy · 06/09/2020 16:46

My dd is also at a Grammar school. They have 4 maths sets and in year 9 she went into the bottom set. She had some very disrupted year 8 maths lessons and maths doesn't come naturally to her. I was worried but she is going into year 10 this week and has just found out that she is in set 2. She has worked hard both at school and during lockdown. She is now on track for a grade 7. I honestly think that going into the bottom set and gaining confidence by reinforcing previous learning strategies was the best thing for her.

PoodleMoth · 06/09/2020 17:24

With Maths is it usually pace and/or confidence that determines which set a child needs to be in rather that their ability. If she is putting the work in then the bottom set will help her and it really is the best place to be!

TableFlowerss · 06/09/2020 17:26

@aintnothinbutagstring

I can't imagine grammar schools these days entering their students into the lower foundation paper if they can help it, it'd do nothing for their league table standing. The worst case scenario is those kids in the 'lower' sets will get a lower grade on the higher paper. You have to remember some of these kids will have had tons of tutoring to get into grammar and often that tutoring has to continue all the way through grammar in order to just keep up (from what I've heard of friends who do this). You don't invest that money and time for your DC to get a grade 4 or 5 at GCSE. Yes many careers don't need maths, but grammar school parents have that mindset that it'll be a passport to the higher level careers that often do.
This 👌

A couple of friends of mine work in grammar schools and they say it’s spectacularly obvious which kids have been tutored for years, just to pas the test.

It’s a shame for these kids as they can’t keep up and they’d self esteem drops because many kids are really bright naturally.

Again not in this situation necessarily, I’m talking across the board in most subject not just maths

caringcarer · 06/09/2020 17:27

If you are really bothered get her s tutor or pay your son to tutor her.

zoemum2006 · 06/09/2020 17:30

My daughter is in middle set for maths at a grammar school and she’s very good at maths. The top set is full of obsessive boys who live for maths.

The Bottom set kids are good at maths (but generally stronger at English).

bellinisurge · 06/09/2020 17:32

All I can say is that years ago when I was at school our sets were organised depending on how good we were at English. I was awesome at English and poor at Maths. I wish I had been in a Maths set more suited to my ability.

Shimy · 06/09/2020 17:42

@Bobbybobbins The poster said, ‘Comps’, I wouldn’t expect those to be target grades for anyone in a comp. Of course in a SEN school that would be not be inappropriate at all where you have students with learning difficulties, etc but the poster gave the impression they were talking about a standard comp.

m00rfarm · 06/09/2020 17:48

My son went to grammar school, He was firmly and absolutely in the bottom set for maths. They did the maths challenge and he was one of only three students in the year to get a gold award. (he could not have cheated as no one else in his set got the gold award). He remained firmly in the bottom set for the whole of his time at school. He is now training to be an accountant. The standard of maths is so high at the grammar schools, that being in the bottom set is not really terrible. They still expected all the students to get grades 7-9 no matter what set they were in.

Thenneverendingstorohree · 06/09/2020 17:55

She goes to a grammar school! YABU and having met lots of bright children with really low confidence due to the grammar school system, please, PLEASE keep reminding her that 'bottom set' is actually still top set.

Colouringaddict · 06/09/2020 18:02

I was exactly the same, went to Grammar school and did well in every subject except maths. I went back in the day when it was GCE and I was so poor I was only allowed to sit CSE, but I got a grade one which was equal to a C at O level.
It has never held me back.
Sometimes it is better to be top of the bottom, than bottom of the top.
If she does well it will do wonders for her confidence in a subject that she struggles more with.

Imapotato · 06/09/2020 18:07

If she is at grammar then the bottom set is probably equivalent to the second set in a comp.

I wouldn’t worry at all about it. My dd2 is in the second set (in a comp) and perfectly capable at maths.

Bobbybobbins · 06/09/2020 18:30

@Shimy I work in an outstanding comp and this is my current class!

Pandamumium · 06/09/2020 18:37

My daughter was (correctly ) in the bottom set for Maths for GCSE.
Her teacher told us that she was top of her class. I asked if she could be moved up, but he said that she was happy and confident in the class. If she moved up she might struggle more and not achieve as good a grade. She managed to get her grade 5 at GCSE which is all she needed.

Shimy · 06/09/2020 18:52

@Bobbybobbins I’m actually backtracking a bit on what I said earlier. Does the F grade not mean Fail? How can you have a target to fail?

Idontbelieveit12 · 06/09/2020 18:56

I was in bottom Maths set in y9 at grammar school. Moved up a set in y10. Got A at GCSE.

thefishthatcouldwish · 06/09/2020 19:02

You sound like you’re comparing siblings which is so unfair.

I always felt think and compared to my brighter older brother

thecatsthecats · 06/09/2020 19:17

I bust my gut to get an A at GCSE maths and I just scraped it. Hopeless at complex and theoretical maths.

But I knock spots off the Oxford Maths PhD mathematician in my company when it comes to mental maths. It's a standing joke that I have to test any sum of his that doesn't include letters.

If she can solidly perform at "normal" business maths then the next best move is to become a crack shot with Excel, not advanced mathematics.

user1497207191 · 06/09/2020 19:26

I went to a grammar and was also in bottom set for Maths. As someone else said bottom set in a grammar is closer to a middle set in a comprehensive school.

I was in top set at my Comp and got a D at GCSE (like a few others), so it's possible the bottom set at a grammar isn't that different from the top set in a comp.

Bobbybobbins · 06/09/2020 19:33

@Shimy

I don't think it officially stands for fail but you're right that it's not a pass grade.

I think it's just about having a realistic target for these students. And some of them will achieve higher than their target (I have one with a grade 2 target who is on track for a 4, hurrah!)

I know what you mean about giving them a 'fail' grade as a target but in some cases a target that is too high would be demoralising. Though aiming for a 3 can also be demoralising.

I feel sorry for some of my lovely year 10s who are working hard but for whatever reason just won't get there.

Although we do get fantastic results in general, there are always some who really struggle to get any GCSEs at grade 4 or above Sad