To be angry at my grans death ?

[idontthinkicare]

My gran was in her late 90s
She fell broke her hip but recovered in April.
Social services said she had to go in care home.
The care home neglected her and she ended up nearly dying due to untreated uti and severe dehydration which damaged her kidneys.
Moved her care homes but she never picked up.
She was drinking sips of water and a few spoons of food.
The hospital put a care plan which stated they didn't think hospital admissions and iv drips was the right thing for her every few weeks.
So she effectively was left in the care home to die.
She was only drinking small amounts.
10 days ago she was really sleepy and I knew that was because she was dehydrated and I knew her salt levels will have been high.
Due to the care plan no hospital admissions.
She then died 7 days later.
I'm angry
When she first went in this home she was eating and drinking fine.
Now she's dead.
I know she died with dehydration didn't she?
If they had admitted her and put her on a drip she would still be here today?

“ I should have refused the plan but the doctors were so convincing it was the best.

I don’t think you are listening to what people are saying, OP.

I don’t mean that unkindly. I hope you find some peace soon. x

If they had admitted her and put her on a drip she would still be here today?

Quality of life is so much more important than quantity.

Another hospital admission would have meant even more time in bed, losing muscle and getting weaker.

She may have lived a little longer, but her quality of life would have been reduced.

My father had several hospital admissions towards the end of his life, and with each one he came out weaker. He ultimately decided that he wanted to die at home, and refused further hospitalisation. It was absolutely the right decision.

I remember your other threads. I'm sorry about your grandmother's passing. Unfortunately, people often stop eating and drinking when they reach the end of their lives. My grandmother was in her late 90s when she passed away, and her skin was so delicate it, I doubt they could have inserted an IV even if they had wanted to.

You couldn't have done any more to help her, and it's unlikely the long-term care facility could have, either.

So sorry about your grandmother, but taking measures to extend her life would have been a cruelty. Her body and mind had reached the point of no return. Again, I'm sorry for your loss.

Letting someone you love pass away is often the kindest thing you can do - it’s human to want to keep them with you as long as possible, but when they’re suffering it’s just not fair on them.

You should be proud that you put her first, and didn’t try to keep her alive whatever the cost.

I’m so sorry for your loss. I had similar with my grandad, he was covered in bruises and died in April too. I couldn’t attend his funeral due to the 10 person rule. I feel I can’t grieve properly and it hurts like hell, struggling a lot with it all.
I truly hope you can find some peace within yourself,much love xx

I can understand why your angry and I'm so sorry for your loss. 💐
It is very hard to get elderly people to drink enough water or tea, but if you feel there was neglect I'm sure there are things you could do to look into the care she received at the home. I hope someone can advise you about that. Speaking to the care home manager might be a good idea.
It is hard losing loved ones and unfortunately a fall can cause many problems with us as we age.
I hope you can get some answers.
Take care.

I know care homes & the NHS can be far from perfect, but there's also a need for realistic expectations around extreme old age. My own grandmother (91) is being cared for at home by her children and has reached a stage where she eats & drinks very little and mostly just sleeps. She has multiple underlying health issues and is basically reaching the natural end of her life. At the moment it looks like an earlier cancer may have returned & if thats the case the HCP's will simply manage the situation in terms of pain relief, as any greater intervention would cause her distress & wouldn't necessarily prolong her life. Yes care homes can have issues, but there's also a natural point where life ends. I think we're in an odd situation now where we can prolong a person's bare existence beyond anything which can meaningfully be called a 'life' and I'm not personally convinced thats a good thing. I know my big anxiety for my grandmother isn't death - its her ending up in a vegetative state, maybe after yet another stroke (she's had several).

I’m an icu dr.

I’d be absolutely horrified if anyone tried to send my relative with dementia in their 90s to hospital for IV fluids.

Stopping eating and drinking is a normal part of the dying process.

My grandma was 92. She was able to potter about outside. She could still beat me at scrabble. Then she broke her hip. That was, as it so often is, the start of the slippery slope to the end. She said to the consultant "fix me so I can walk again, or make sure I die on the table"...it would have been much kinder if she had died in theatre. So much frailer. So much weaker. So much independence lost. One infection after another. Until she was too weak to rally and died. This is what death looks like in the frail elderly. Dragging it out longer may be easier on those of us left behind, so we can tell ourselves that everything had been done, but it is brutal on the elderly patient.

I understand your anger but it sounds like your gran had a quiet peaceful death. Her body was done with this world. It sounds like you were very close to her.

After her hip break she was able to walk but she needed a frame and someone helping her.
Then she got a uti which was untreated for a while which made her stop drinking /eating then she became dehydrated.
I just keep thinking if that had been treated earlier this wouldn't of happened.

@idontthinkicare she would have died anyway. She was at the end of a pretty decent natural lifespan.

@trixiebelden77 although my gran had dementia she still recognised people and was aware of her surroundings

I'm so sorry for your loss @idontthinkicare, my DM died in her 90's and you do feel guilty, you question all your decisions and think you should have tried harder but it's not your fault. My DM had dementia like your DG and believe me, it's a horrible condition that just gets worse and worse, in her last months my DM couldn't stand or get out of bed, she thought I was her DM and didn't enjoy anything, your DG would have been the same if she'd lived, hard as it is sometimes death can be a mercy. I hope you'll find peace

I’m so sorry about your gran. Unfortunately only taking sips and small amounts with dementia is part of the decline and dying process. It can be that a person seems to be getting on fine and then a bad infection, or fracture (classically hip fracture) sends them on a downward spiral. The infection or fracture is a partly a sign of their fragility rather than the cause of everything.

Persistent iv’s can cause lots of trauma - they get dislodged which causes the fluid to leak under the skin and a lot of swelling. They can get infected. Slowly there are fewer and fewer places to put in an iv line and she would need multiple attempts to put one in. So it is not seen as a long term solution.

I'm sorry for your grief

I do how you find some answers and comfort from this thread. It's natural to want to keep somebody alive but it's not always the kindest thing to do. It sounds like she had a good death - fairly peaceful, pain- and distress-free? That's brilliant, so many people don't.

If I was well into my 90s I'd rather go this way than through advanced dementia or with painful drips and aggressive treatment only putting off the inevitable. I think most people would like the same too.

Xxx

I am sorry you lost your gran.
My dmil had dementia and started refusing food and drink whilst still at home. She was admitted to hospital with dehydration and everything was done to help her but after 6 weeks we had to accept that she could only be kept alive if she was fed into her stomach and that was not the correct thing to do.
Unfortunately dementia is a terminal illness.
I hope you can come to terms with your loss.

So sorry op. I'm not a doctor or hcp but did some training for hospice volunteering, and what you describe is a quite natural death for someone of your dear gran's age. It sounds like the hcps didn't properly explain to you how death was going to progress, this can make it incredibly confusing and upsetting, I'm so sorry.

A drip might have kept her alive for a few extra days or weeks, but the hcps will have been aware that those extra days will have been less comfortable, even more painful and distressing, for your gran and they wanted to save her from that.

It's a very hard one, in our culture we tend to get muddled about death and don't always remember that quality of life/comfort at the end of life, might be more important than getting those few extra days.

I know you feel guilty - i'm so sorry - my gentle suggestion is that maybe your guilt is a worthy "price" you're paying in return for sparing your gran unnecessary suffering before she had to leave this world. In time you'll see that even that "price" isn't one you have to pay, if that makes sense - you've nothing to feel guilty about, not at all. You actually did a kind thing for your gran by trusting the hcps, I think.

I know it doesn't feel like that right now. I'm really sorry. xx

They didn't tell me she was dying.
I know I should have worked it out but I kept thinking if she has more fluids she will be ok.
She was asking for biscuits and cups of tea but then just sipping them.
I've been reading online that her sodium levels will have risen which will have caused her more lethargy so she will have slept more not drinking obviously then that's what's happened

Hmmn. On my mum's side, I come from a line of remarkably long lived people. Quite a few of them lived well into their nineties, having been born in the mid 1800s. Most lived at least into their eighties. This was before much modern medicine and before care homes and a living in too isolated a place to be admitted to hospital - they all lived at home on the family farm.

The ones who died younger all had accidents as cause of death. Every single of my mum's relatives and my mum herself died in their late sixties/early seventies after being admitted to hospital with survivable conditions and declining rapidly in hospital. I think its pretty brutal not to treat older people the same as younger people.

My great great grandfather, who lived until he was 97, was quite famous and people used to visit him to hear his stories, he remained lucid until the week he died from bronchitis. Its nonsense to think that older people cannot survive this and that and its more humane not to treat them properly. And yes, of course it goes on.

YANBU, and sorry for your loss.

A hip fracture is often associated with premorbity even if the patient seems to recover, there’s a lot of research out there regarding this. Sorry OP but sounds like the doctors acted in the most humane way with a very elderly lady with dementia who no had seemingly given up.

I’m so sorry about your gran OP

Statistically the life expectancy for someone following a hip fracture is less than a year. Obviously there are people who do survive longer than that, but that is the general life expectancy.

Your gran was a good age, and TBH allowing someone with dementia to die a natural death is a mercy not a curse.

Dementia is a horrible,degenerative condition which removes the person by inches and by the time they die they are no longer the person you knew and they no longer know those around them. As hard as it is for those who are left behind, it is actually the best for someone with dementia to pass peacefully before everything they once were is ripped away from them.

@idontthinkicare

They didn't tell me she was dying. I know I should have worked it out but I kept thinking if she has more fluids she will be ok. She was asking for biscuits and cups of tea but then just sipping them. I've been reading online that her sodium levels will have risen which will have caused her more lethargy so she will have slept more not drinking obviously then that's what's happened

So they didn't mention that she was going through the dying process? - gosh, how hard for you.

If its any comfort, some doctors (not all!) avoid mentioning death or struggle to talk to loved ones about the death process. Honestly it sounds like that's whats happened to you and your gran. Of course the knock on effect is that you are suffering due to them not communicating properly with you, which is a massive shame.

You didn't do anything wrong. It sounds like the doctor was an awkward type who didn't know how to speak clearly, or maybe didnt realise he/she wasn't being clear with you, but that they were also trying to do right by your gran.

I'm really sorry that she died. I can tell how devoted you are to her.

She weighed under 4 stone,she had always been slim but she was a shadow of herself.
I know I sound selfish wanting her here at all costs,I just love her so much.
She was a mum to me.
She loved shopping and afternoon teas.
We used to play cards and watch old tv programs.
Every week I would buy her a new jumper that she would "keep for best" but never wear but it didn't matter as her happy little face when she seen it made me so happy.
She loved cuddles and singing.
She would still love to brush my hair like she did when I was young then I would put her rollers in every Sunday.
She's my everything..I just want her back