AIBU to say I am proficient in a language on a Civil Service application?

[MadCatEnthusiast]

Posting here for some traffic.

I've found a job that a desirable skill for the role is to be "proficient" in a European language like German, French and Spanish for example. Google's definition tells me that proficiency means to read and write with no problem which I can. Some of my friends and family say it's fairly arbitrary of what proficiency is which confuses me further.

I can read/speak one of them to a B1 level and get the overall gist of B2 and fluent language texts. I also did speak it fluently as a child (still message some people in that language as well) which really wasn't that long ago. I know I would be able to pick it back up quicker than the average person who has no experience in it. I just have not been back in a French-speaking environment in over a decade.

Would it be unreasonable to say that I am proficient and apply for the role anyway? It only says that English will be assessed but at interview, I would tell the truth and say that I am committed to getting myself back to fluency and count that as part of one of the success profile behaviours of engaging internationally - where one of the points is to have a "working knowledge of country context and be interested in learning languages".

Also, on another note, has anyone had experience of needing to explain the 'Engaging Internationally' and 'Demonstrating Resilience'. Could I incorporate part of these behaviours into my overall answers and personal statement or are these demonstrated at interview?

Sounds like you are proficient to me. If you spoke it fluently as a child you would be able to pick it up again quite quickly I would have thought.

It depends on the job and what the language will be needed for - it doesn't sound you would necessarily be up to immediately negotiating complicated trade agreements in the language, for instance, but you might be able to support with consular work.

Under the CEFR scale B1 counts as Basic Proficiency.

I used to work for possibly the department you might be applying for and if so then the translators on our team had to hold a very good command of the international languages used (the only exception then was Arabic for which we used to outsource, but that probably has changed these days) as often it was highly nuanced evidence or legislation they were translating. So if it is a role where specific translation is involved it may be an issue. That said, you mention French which if that is your weaker subject might be fine as a) I don’t recall it being used that often and b) others would be able to pick up any slack for 😁. Also, just noticed it only says ‘desirable’ not ‘essential’, so you may well be fine...

As an English language teacher Proficient would generally indicate B2 in all 4 skills (Reading, Writing, Speaking and Listening) though a spiky profile (eg: B2 Speaking, B1 listening, C1 Reading, B1 Writing) is often the case.
For more guidelines look at the CEFR as to what is expected for each level.

I think you can take tests to demonstrate proficiency. I know the Institute Francais offer this for French, for example.

In between your application and any interview there may be enough time to do this.

I would expect someone "proficient" in a language to be B2. It sounds as if you would get back to that standard pretty quickly.

Note that to be B2 overall you don't have to be B2 across all language activities, it's fine or even expected that you'll be better at some tasks than others.

It is basically consular work. Most of the work wouldn't be in French but instead English as the job description has me believe. The role may have some French documents and such seeing the dept works with France.

Maybe I am under/overestimating myself but I'll have a look at testing myself quickly.

Besides, I don't think the role would start until 2-3 months if all goes well with the pandemic if I'm not instructed to work from home.

If it’s only desirable criteria, just say yes, you do. If this is a role at FCDO and/or you need to use the language, they have a language school for whatever level you’re at. They’ll be happy to brush up with you and teach you any technical vocabulary. Or develop the candidate from scratch if needed.

The ‘engaging internationally’ part, or whatever the essential skills are, are more important and you absolutely should demonstrate these in the personal statement.

Look up the STAR format. Things are changing around recruitment but you should have some examples in this format for interview and, depending on the application style, included or at least referenced in your application. You should definitely be using examples, if you have them, of working with international stakeholders.

Also, even if it’s not at FCDO, other depts’ staff can use the FCDO language school.

If you absolutely needed the language they would put it as mandatory and assess you for it.

I was fluent as a child and mine comes back after a couple of weeks in the country.

"Proficient" is a very vague term. If they want a certain level of proficiency, the employer should indicate exactly what that is. I have experience with language proficiency testing, and it is certainly true that people tend to be unreliable when self-reporting their language skills (both over-estimating and under-estimating their abilities).

You might think in terms of what you can and cannot do in a language. For instance, do you rely on material you have memorized? (That would be a very low level of proficiency.) Can you create sentences and questions? (Slightly higher level.) Can you narrate in all tenses, describe people and places, give instructions, discuss current events? (Again, a step up in terms of proficiency.) Can you support an opinion on an abstract topic, offer a hypothesis, give advice? Can you tailor your language to the audience? (Moving further up the scale of proficiency.)

Everything really depends on the expectations of the employer and the position. Perhaps they only need you to have a limited working proficiency. But perhaps they need a considerably higher skill level.

It is part of the FCO (even though not part of the development part? I just saw it's sort of changed its name) so I think I would be able to take advantage of the language school..

@MrsTerryPratchett That's positive to hear. I hope mine does. I'm always a bit ashamed that I'm not as eloquent as I once was.

@makingmammaries

Under the CEFR scale B1 counts as Basic Proficiency.

B1 is "independent", C1 is proficiency. B1 is not proficient.

Have you actually tried doing a test to gauge your current level, @MadCatEnthusiast ? You might find you are better than you think. Maybe do a bit of revision, watch some French TV, read some French books and try a test in a couple of weeks. You can always withdraw our application.

It takes about 400+ hours of study to get from B1 to C1. Civil Service recruitment takes a long time... You could probably do it if you put in a lot of work every day. But it wouldn't be true to say you are proficient now if you are only B1.

Yeah it doesn't seem the same as fluent so you're good!

Do you have to put proficient on the application form, or is it just b1 etc? I'd apply, and put specific level where requested.

@MadCatEnthusiast

It is part of the FCO (even though not part of the development part? I just saw it's sort of changed its name) so I think I would be able to take advantage of the language school..

@MrsTerryPratchett That's positive to hear. I hope mine does. I'm always a bit ashamed that I'm not as eloquent as I once was.

It's very odd. It's like it's software that's installed but not connected. And because I was fluent, I never really thought "casa is house" it just came out. IYSWIM. Which means that for the first few days in the country I open my mouth expecting something to come out and nothing does. Then magically it does after a few days.

I agree with watching TV, ready magazines, immersing your brain and seeing that happens. We watched a lot of action type stuff because the dialogue is simple. It does mean the first phrase you learn is "vamanos/andiamo/on y va"!

No test, just an estimated guess based on how I currently use it which is fairly rare. I can hold solid conversations in the past, present and future tenses but I've not needed to use it for anything other than informal conversation.

When I watch French dramas, everything does make sense to me perhaps just a second or two slower. I will definitely do some revision in any case - I recently bought a textbook as well which I'll use.

Besides, it is desirable and it's just been labelled as proficient..

@MinesAPintOfTea

Do you have to put proficient on the application form, or is it just b1 etc? I'd apply, and put specific level where requested.

i did, yeah. It was out of Basic, Proficient, Excellent or something like that. Again, I'm not excellent but I'm not basic?

Proficient is ok then. Remember that a lot of men will "round up" their abilities.

I'm between a C1 and C2 in one language. I'd probably describe myself as proficient or fluent if I had to (e.g. it was a job requirement, because I know I'm good enough at it to use it fluently for work - I already do), but I'd be embarrassed to do so in front of native speakers because I'm not at native speaker level. I'm a B1 on a couple of other languages and an A2 on another. There's no way I'd describe myself as proficient in any of those. I'd either be specific about my highest level of attainment (in the one I've got a recognised qualification in) or give the CEFR level. You could maybe go one up, to B2, because it sounds like you'd be able to get that back pretty easily, but I wouldn't put the word 'proficient' for B1/B2.

When we write CV's for people, the guidance we give is that you should be able to communicate in your chosen business environment in that language. So, if you are looking for a job as an accountant, you'd need to be able to speak french in the context of accounting terms but if you are applying for a job in a restaurant you'd need french to the level that would allow you to communicate with the chef, manager and customers.

If you are almost there and are confident you can get to where you need to be fairly quickly, I'd include it (but start practising and getting up to speed now).

You may be at the level of what is informally called "kitchen language," i.e., you can chat in the kitchen with your grandmother about basic and familiar things. That is very common for heritage learners. These are people whose parents are native speakers and who may have been born in their parents' home country but for whom a second language has become dominant. But it's entirely possible that your proficiency level is higher than that.

You might also think about which subjects you are able to discuss. Do you stick with topics related to yourself, your family, your interests, your work, etc.? Or can you talk about a wide range of subjects? Do you speak only about concrete topics or can you discuss something abstract?

The only way to determine proficiency is through testing, and even then it isn't an exact science. But it is a fairly accurate measure.

Sorry, just seen the update. That's hard. B1 isn't proficient, but it's better than basic. In that case I might have gone for it, as a PP says - men will round up their skills, and you could quite easily get to something which would pass for proficient by interview time.

You can test your comprehension and get up to speed with current events (and current colloquialisms) by listening to French radio stations on the internet.

Have a French station playing in the background, sing along if you know the songs, listen to the news reports and weather (and write down the bullet points straight away afterwards) and so on - it is surprising how quickly the brain can tune in to whatever is going on in the background.