Racism in the US vs racism in the UK

[Alonetime]

I've just watched the racism in an elevator video (google it, it's very short video) and I'm a bit perplexed by it. As a woman, I wouldn't think for a second that the man might steal my handbag, but I would definitely be very aware of being a woman in a confined space with a man.

Is this a case of racism in the US just bein very different to the racism in the UK, or am I too a "dumb bitch" and part of the problem?

There wasn't slavery in the UK?

Hmm. The video you speak of, is that the one where numerous black men seem to agree that if they were in an enclosed space like an elevator with a white woman that would be the most anxiety inducing situation because if a white woman was to ever say they were mugged or assaulted they'd stand no chance of being believed?
If so, im sure I saw it, but quite some time ago.
Its sad, and as a white woman I'm saddened by that.

I tbink racism exists both here and in the US, I do think that racism is worse there though.

The first time I was in the states I was having a really good conversation with a black lady, and she was just so lovely, and I said that I'd seen a difference in the way people interacted with each other. She said as far as her and her family go, they keep it professional with white folks because she couldn't take the risk of someone taking her sass as aggression and using it as an opportunity to end her life. She said she could only be herself around other black people without fear. I couldnt get my head around that. This lady was so lovely and told me, to never venture further south because the further you go, the worse it gets.

The video you speak of, is that the one where numerous black men seem to agree that if they were in an enclosed space like an elevator with a white woman that would be the most anxiety inducing situation because if a white woman was to ever say they were mugged or assaulted they'd stand no chance of being believed?

Everyone is punching sideways not up. Because women are hardly ever believed when they say they've been assaulted. Now probably a white women is more likely to be believed about a black man, because of racism, but how many women came forward about Bill Cosby, R Kelly et al? And male sport men in the US, including black sportsmen, appears to assault their partners with alarming regularity without much happening.

Power is the thing. Money, white, male, fame, citizenship, all confer power. And when you have power, you are believed more.

I love that story about Obama that basically every woman who has ever taken a picture with him says he always asks, never touches without permission etc. Unlike Trump, Clinton, Bush etc. He does it to protect himself, yes. But ALL MEN should behave the same way.

Lots of women have been scared of my DH he has to be really careful at work as so many women have acted afraid. Women have crossed over roads, moved seats on tube. A woman once walked into a meeting room he was in and screamed.

He is 6ft 4 and black. It's obviously hard to say if this is purely race based... But I know no white ex boyfriends or male friends /family have ever experienced this.

And yes to the comment above that black men fear they will be accused of assault. My DH wanted to volunteer for those shielding from covid but he changed his mind as he always worries that if something went missing, or something happened he would be blamed as a black male. He's very cautious about putting himself in situations where he could be accountable (even when he hasn't done anything!)

He is 6ft 4 and black. It's obviously hard to say if this is purely race based... But I know no white ex boyfriends or male friends /family have ever experienced this.

My ex is 6' 4" and white and has definitely had the people being scared thing. Including one bloke in a bar queue who told me he was avoiding him. Shaved head and looks a bit of a meathead though. Soft as shite of course as so many tall men are.

Not to minimize though. I don't doubt it happens, and frequently.

I think we’re all primed to see racism/sexism around every corner nowadays. That’s not
to say neither exist, but if that becomes the default explanation we’ll compound the situation instead of dissipating it.

There is an especially pernicious aspect to the history of this as many lynchings, and indeed the Tulsa riots came about from black men being alone with a white woman and an accusation being made, so I get the sensitivity.

Conversely sexual violence against women and girls remains such a colossal problem we can’t afford to let men off any and all suspicion simply because they also face racism. That’s how things like Rotherham came about.

We are a sophisticated society and we are perfectly capable of tackling racism and sexual violence without sacrificing one to the other. I’m also somewhat flabbergasted at the cultural cognitive dissonance that apparently a man can enter a lift and is so switched on to non verbal cues he can accurately perceive a woman’s reactions as racist, but apparently men are all lost at sea when it comes to reading women re: sexual consent.

Oh and I've learnt not to try and tell motorists their dress, cardigan or belt, is hanging out of the door, or they have a puncture, because even though I'm often driving my own vehicle at the time the standard response is to assume I'm trying to get money of them!
We have to be very still and gesture from a safe distance and watch them accelerate away or wind their window up sharp and pretend they can't see or hear us. The worst is when they suddenly drive through a red light they were stationary at to get away.

Its not just how we're dressed either, as family member who's a police officer so in uniform, suffers so many 'colleague' comments about nicking everything in sight except criminals, and claims they'll leave trash in the locker room, and gets name checked every time kit goes walking etc, etc. They also find black male officers the least likely to be a problem. I think we all have unconscious body language that puts each other at more or less ease and can 'invite' responses.

I think it's a shame the video reduces to misogyny because it's otherwise spot on about the effect it can have.

@Dervel

I think we’re all primed to see racism/sexism around every corner nowadays. That’s not to say neither exist, but if that becomes the default explanation we’ll compound the situation instead of dissipating it.

There is an especially pernicious aspect to the history of this as many lynchings, and indeed the Tulsa riots came about from black men being alone with a white woman and an accusation being made, so I get the sensitivity.

Conversely sexual violence against women and girls remains such a colossal problem we can’t afford to let men off any and all suspicion simply because they also face racism. That’s how things like Rotherham came about.

We are a sophisticated society and we are perfectly capable of tackling racism and sexual violence without sacrificing one to the other. I’m also somewhat flabbergasted at the cultural cognitive dissonance that apparently a man can enter a lift and is so switched on to non verbal cues he can accurately perceive a woman’s reactions as racist, but apparently men are all lost at sea when it comes to reading women re: sexual consent.

^this with bells on 👍

@steff13

There wasn't slavery in the UK?

historicengland.org.uk/research/inclusive-heritage/the-slave-trade-and-abolition/sites-of-memory/black-lives-in-england/

It’s how you grew up. I come from a poor bame area and will walk across the road to avoid a lone white man at night but a BAME man would have to be waving a weapon for me to do the same.

I didn't grow up in a poor bame area, but I live in one now. And yes, agreed. I feel far safer here as a woman than I ever did living in my previous area. I can count the number of times I've been harassed here on one hand. Three of them were white men.

A woman once walked into a meeting room he was in and screamed.

Oh my goodness. How awful for your husband.

I wouldn't get into a lift on my own with a lone male in an isolated area. Regardless of what colour they are.

And having been pick pocketed a few years ago I always carry my bag at my front with my arm across it...... If I was accused of being racist because of steps I take to protect myself I'd be massively fucked off.

But I can see things both ways, if I was singled out and made to feel different repeatedly I'd probably start seeing things the wrong way too.

@Phoenix21 there was no legal basis for it, and when it was tested I believe the finding was that slavery wasnt officialy a thing (interestingly the test case was one where someone was trying to claim assistance from a particular parish which for complicated reasons depended on her having been a slave of people attached to that parish and therefore eligible for assistance. The Parish's arguement was she was a servant and therefore elgible for assistance from her parish of birth. So even that case certainly doesnt show life was easy or fair for black people then.) Many black people would have been exploited and suffered great injustices (and still do). Plus the UK benefited hugely from slavery carried out elsewhere. But slavery wasn't built into the legal framework of the UK as it was in the US and that makes a difference I think.

Depends where in the US (I'm only familiar with the east coast). But IME the observation that the farther south you go, the worse it gets is true. I heard people I thought were otherwise decent openly make comments which would have rendered them persona non grata in the UK. In fact I know of a former colleague's spouse who came from one of those regions who was asked to leave a UK establishment for making a very similar sort of comment.

Where I lived in the north east US I heard little of the same, but the racial demographic wasn't what might have been called diverse.

Also, walking alone at night I'm generally hyper aware of ANY men in the way I wouldnt be of women. I'm careful to always leave distance to react when passing them etc. I think most women do this instinctively. I will also often have an internal debate about whether its better to cross to the other side of the road or not draw attention by staying on the same side. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of the time black men are more careful about leaving space between us crossing over to the other side of the road themselves etc. White men are much more likely to (unintentionaly Im sure) loom out of the darkness unexpectedly or walk very fast behind me so they catch up.
When men do give space in the way described I'm torn between feeling grateful that they do this, sad that they feel they have to, and wishing all men also felt they had to.

It's a stupid video because

1. You're supposed to move over when someone else enters the elevator
2. You're supposed to bring your belongings closer to make maximum space for the person who just entered
3. He clearly hates women
4. He acts like a genuine threat to her (and threatens severe violence) in the video.

The theme of what he discusses is true, the purse clutching side eye does happen, but this video feels more like his rage at women than his rage at racism.

I would be nervous in a lift on my own with any man I don’t know. In the scenario in the video, possibly less so as he’s smartly dressed and it looks like a professional context. I wouldn’t be worried that he was trying to steal my handbag though.

It reminds me of the video of a woman being chased down the street by a man who’s annoyed With her because she’s scared of him.

@Dosta would I be right in thinking you are Roma? The level of discrimination in this country is shocking, and it does annoy me that people I've known in the past are quite happy to virtue signal about racism in the US but so hypocritical in the way they talk about some minority groups in this country.

@TeaAndHobnob

It’s how you grew up. I come from a poor bame area and will walk across the road to avoid a lone white man at night but a BAME man would have to be waving a weapon for me to do the same.

I didn't grow up in a poor bame area, but I live in one now. And yes, agreed. I feel far safer here as a woman than I ever did living in my previous area. I can count the number of times I've been harassed here on one hand. Three of them were white men.

Same here - I would cross over the road if a group of white drunk lads were coming towards - I wouldn't if a group of drunk black lads were - and I live in quite a nice area.

I was in a lift in the US with an American friend. 2 black teenagers got in the lift and were just laughing and chatting to each other. Then they got out. My friend said ‘oh my god. I was so terrified when they got in’. I was so confused as it was a ridiculous thing to say but she insisted that Black Americans aren’t like Black people in the UK. Honestly, I was so livid. I just don’t get how stupidly racist some people are.

By the way I am an Asian women - 50s - and I have had abuse from drunk white lads more than once - never from black or Asian lads - drunk or not

Actually though, looking at that video (if its the one you mean) its all acted, so its not like the woman is actually being agressed by the man for being scared. WHile its sweary, he does also make the point that in addition to being racist purse clutching is a really bad idea in that sort of situation since it a) sends out subtle signals to criminals (of any colour) that you are a potential victim and b) if someone is planning to mug you you really dont want to be holding your purse in a death grip anyway. I hope that doesnt come across as victim blaming, its one of the first things we were taught in self defense classes...

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Depends where in the US (I'm only familiar with the east coast). But IME the observation that the farther south you go, the worse it gets is true. I heard people I thought were otherwise decent openly make comments which would have rendered them persona non grata in the UK. In fact I know of a former colleague's spouse who came from one of those regions who was asked to leave a UK establishment for making a very similar sort of comment.

Where I lived in the north east US I heard little of the same, but the racial demographic wasn't what might have been called diverse.

As an American I would say this is largely true. There are some southern cities like Atlanta and Miami (and most of the bigger urban centers in Florida) that are more progressive and diverse, but rural areas still have a long way to go.

I don't know how much this has been in the news in the UK, but we're currently seeing movement in removing statues of confederate war leaders and removing the confederate flag from public display. There's a whole ideology you find in the south that slavery really wasn't so bad and that those northern bullies destroyed something lovely and honorable in the south. I kid you not.

Lost Cause of the Confederacy

The Germans very deliberately and effectively denazified their culture after WWII. We should have done the same with the Lost Cause culture of the south after the civil war.