If you can do your job from home then it can be done from India...

[Bewareoftheblob]

This is what my brother has been told by his employers. He works in a small office in a city centre and can work remotely. He admits that their efficiency, especially in terms of the quality of customer service, has been compromised by the team working from home.

They've all been told to go back to the office from mid September, which he is reluctant to do, mainly because he dislikes the commute and has enjoyed being at home with his wife and toddler.

When he (and, I think, some other team members) requested an extension to working from home, they were told in no uncertain terms to get back in to the office, and that they should be wary because 'if you can do your job from home, it can probably be done from India', which my brother has taken as a threat of redundancy.

They were also asked if they didn't feel guilty about the impact they were having on the economy and other people's livelihood - I assume they meant transport/Costa/Pret etc. They were asked to have more of a community spirit. It's a pretty informal place, not very 'corporate' which is why I assume it's been worded in this way!

What do you think? I'm torn to be honest, I totally understand why my brother wants to work from home, but whilst I don't think his company expressed themselves very well, I can see their point too.

So I suppose it's more are they being unreasonable rather than am I being unreasonable!

Younger workers and grad schemes etc could still be done. People still want to work from an office. People should have a choice. Schedules could be arranged.

It would also open up oppurtunities to those who may not have had them before. People who can't commute because of health, children etc. WFH with flexible working could open up oppurtunities to many.

One person's subjective view that he is less productive at home does not make that the root cause of reduced company productivity. Its an anecdotal point which can just as easily be used to say that the company has a problem with its managers.

Not sure how managers are to blame for the OP's brother allowing screaming children and blaring TVs to interrupt his conversations with customers, to the point that they have made complaints about it.

And yes, it is a subjective opinion. Though given that it's shared by both the OP's brother - who would have an incentive to say the opposite - and by his managers, it would appear to have some merit. It's certainly no more subjective than all the claims of being 'so much more productive' when WFH.

The fact is he accepted a job knowing there was a commute involved. It's not unreasonable for his employers to expect him to return to the office, no matter how much he 'wants to spend time with his family'.

I think if they could actually offshore, save money and keep productivity then they would have probably done it already. That said if the team are less productive, then the company needs to investigate why this is. In my area we’re a lot more productive wfh, and were doing it before Covid. You can work far longer instead of wasting time commuting, saves the company on office expense, parking, benefits the environment and local community (buy sandwiches/coffee locally instead of in a pret in town!).

And yes, it is a subjective opinion. Though given that it's shared by both the OP's brother - who would have an incentive to say the opposite - and by his managers, it would appear to have some merit

About his personal performance? Yes possibly but the company's performance?

The OP's brother may be the slacker from hell but that doesn't alter the fact that a manager who talks in terms of "outsourcing him" and "think about the mcjobs" is a poor manager.

"I want you back in the office because your customers have a much lower satisfaction rate than your colleagues" or "Your customers are complaining about background noise, if you can't address that you need to be in the office" etc are what I would expect on an individual level.

However the OP described an assumption that customer service issues were assumed to be caused by WFH. I doubt very much in the current climate that they have the evidence for that as being the key problem over eg the quality of product/service they are providing which generates the calls in the first place.

@Bumlooksbig and @C8H10N4O2 you have both highlighted things I too have seen.

My experience of offshoring has been in the main to do with IT development work and IT support. The IT development work had to be re-onshored. The IT support has been moved from country to country with diminishing returns. It is now referred to as the Self Help Desk.

WFH has been a challenge for those managers who rule by intimidation, bullying/banter. The managers who have thrived are the ones who have better management styles which dont involve browbeating their reports. Funnily enough it is the intimidatory managers who are wanting their teams back in the office.

In my area we’re a lot more productive wfh, and were doing it before Covid

Yes we generally find the same but I think that havingi WFH/distributed teams as BAU before COVID was a massive advantage. We did a lot of work back in March/April helping clients to adjust to mass remote working and with addressing the skills and kit needed to manage it.

Where I've seen problems its mostly been with a management skills gap or junior staff lacking facilities/kit to wfh effectively.

The OP's brother may be the slacker from hell but that doesn't alter the fact that a manager who talks in terms of "outsourcing him" and "think about the mcjobs" is a poor manager.

I agree with that.

"I want you back in the office because your customers have a much lower satisfaction rate than your colleagues" or "Your customers are complaining about background noise, if you can't address that you need to be in the office" etc are what I would expect on an individual level.

For all we know, that did happen and the 'outsourcing' comment was made in exasperation (still inappropriate however). We're operating on limited info here.

However the OP described an assumption that customer service issues were assumed to be caused by WFH. I doubt very much in the current climate that they have the evidence for that as being the key problem over eg the quality of product/service they are providing which generates the calls in the first place.

I'm assuming the employers have come to a decision based on their experiences over the past 5 months. Not all jobs can be done well from home, and maybe his job is one of them. Companies aren't obliged to allow staff to work in a way they consider inferior just to suit the employee's lifestyle.

Anyone threatens someone's job by saying things like "if you can do your job from home, it can probably be done from India" and then asks them if they feel guilty about the impact they are having on the economy and other people's livelihood by WFH is clearly very very stupid.

@IcedPurple

I definitely don't think most jobs that involve customer service can be done in India to the same level...depends on what you consider efficiency to mean!

It's not just customer service jobs, and it's not just India.

It's interesting that so many here are insisting that their job can absolutely be done perfectly from home, but if you suggest that it could be done just as well from a home in Poland or Lithuania, then of course that would be completely out of the question!

to be fair I agree that most customer service jobs could be done as well in Poland or Lithuania as the UK if they were undertaken by a native (or very proficient) English speaker which most outsourced jobs are not.

If companies can track efficiency well enough to say WFH is a huge detriment they can of course force people back in. But surely it depends how big the drop actually is, if there are any other benefits etc. If it's only a 5% drop it might be worth people being allowed to WFH one day a week to engender good relationships with staff. Where I work our sick record has dropped hugely over the last six months because the people who would usually be off with a cold/flu, or who fibbed that they had the above to be able to care for children who did, have just carried on as they didn't have the additional effort of coming to work and could just carry on from their home. People also seem to just be generally less run down due to saving hours on a commute every week and not being crammed onto a tube or open plan office with aircon spreading every sneeze.

So the company could say 'right everyone back in no exceptions' and see efficiency rise for a few weeks....and then drop again when everyone starts getting colds and flu!

Threatening to outsource to India is inappropriate. If the employer has noticed a problem with productivity they should talk to employees about ways to rectify that rather than threatening to offshore their jobs.

The argument about saving Pret and so on just generally irritates me. I am in a lot better financial health since lockdown because I don't spend £200 on transport each month as well as an extra £100 or so on lunches. I resent the idea I should sacrifice my financial wellbeing to spend money on things I don't want.

Well if he's spending time with family then he ain't working is he so therefore he needs to get back to work. I'm working from home but no young kids and I do longer hours. I've noticed certain colleagues seem to have perfected the art of shirking though so probably the rest of us will pay for that!

Are the I'm Alright Jacks who are pleased that they are saving money on Pret and are dismissive of low-paid workers losing their jobs the same people who think we should all wear masks to protect each other? Not just aimed at the poster above, loads of PP have said the same thing.

A Venn diagram would be useful.

@Bewareoftheblob

Are the I'm Alright Jacks who are pleased that they are saving money on Pret and are dismissive of low-paid workers losing their jobs the same people who think we should all wear masks to protect each other? Not just aimed at the poster above, loads of PP have said the same thing.

A Venn diagram would be useful.

What if you spend that money on local cafes or things like food delivery, a cleaner, a gardener. Is that ok?

Pret and other places have stamped out independent places for years. A chance to swing back.

The fact that our economy/society is so reliant on us all spending money on shit we don't want/need is the real problem. Maybe somebody should actually address that, instead of just trying to make people buy more pointless crap just to save people's jobs. What a terrible broken system.

Why are jobs in city centres more important than jobs elsewhere OP? Theres no suggestion that saving has gone up so people are mostly spending money on other things and so supporting different jobs. Why do we have to be slaves to long commute/long day culture just so big business makes money on city centre leases and frothy coffee?

Well this is a major reason why I want to get out of IT work as it's all being offshore.

Yes I can be done in India and their graduates are cheaper labour. But unfortunately you do not get the same quality of output however good the offshore intentions. All of my multinational blue chip IT companies support was in India 1) Language barrier was immense. I was told it was due to my regional accent. I'm a londoner! 2) training was shite. Unless it's in cribsheet they couldn't fix anything 3) my company ( three letter acronym American based) only took on idiots who didnt understand the sentence "my email is broken" 4) most of the men was extremely rude and patronising

So yes its true but the boss might find all he is producing is more confusion and a shit end product.

It's a crap situation. His employer sounds like a bell end with zero people skills

@queueueue

The fact that our economy/society is so reliant on us all spending money on shit we don't want/need is the real problem. Maybe somebody should actually address that, instead of just trying to make people buy more pointless crap just to save people's jobs. What a terrible broken system.

This, this, this.

low-paid workers cannot afford to live anywhere but outside of larger cities for a start

Oh dear. That’s not accurate. At all. Plenty of low paid workers live in London. In extremely bad conditions. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

Are the I'm Alright Jacks who are pleased that they are saving money on Pret and are dismissive of low-paid workers losing their jobs the same people who think we should all wear masks to protect each other

I’d bet money on it.

You cannot prop up Prets and make it a moral good to do so.

Chains that have no good intent other than land grab and overpriced bad food.

Perhaps low paid workers will relish more jobs outside the expensive city.

I’m afraid I’ve got no sympathy for your brother if the only reasons he’s requested the home working extension are that he likes being at home with his family and because he doesn’t like the commute. It sounds like he hasnt requested the extension on health grounds and he just comes across as a slacker really. Too many people have got too used to home working. If your employer wants you back in the office and you have no reason not to do that, then they have every right to threaten redundancy.

@C8H10N4O2

We have really struggled to locate offshore staff that can assume command, develop projects and innovate independently of Management. Not saying this talent doesn't exist, just that it is probably just as expensive in contracting costs as a temporary worker who may disappear in a few months when they are taken off the account.

Yes this is one reason why a lot of offshore work has been re-onshored. There are some tasks, expecially around innovation, design, origination which are just as expensive to do offshore as onshore. Other tasks can be offshored very successfully as "enclosed" pieces of work.

When managers start wittering about sending jobs to India and protecting "McJobs" it suggests they are not particularly effective managers and don't really know where their business problems lie.

My company found that offshoring development projects to India didn't generally work well, but doing some of the QA there works well - the time difference can work to our advantage. Me being 8hrs ahead of the rest of the developers can be useful too. Customer support has teams in all geos so that customers globally have native speakers in their time zone.

... one size doesn't fit all.

Perhaps low paid workers will relish more jobs outside the expensive city.

Yes, some do. Some will not. You all know that plenty of working class low income people grew up in and love london right? London isn’t just full of rich elites. Low income workers exist in London and they don’t have huge reserves to move with these mysterious, as yet non-existing fabulous new jobs outside the ‘expensive city’.

@MillyMollyFarmer

low-paid workers cannot afford to live anywhere but outside of larger cities for a start

Oh dear. That’s not accurate. At all. Plenty of low paid workers live in London. In extremely bad conditions. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

you clearly haven't got a clue what you are talking about. It's not even that difficult to google, there has been debate about key workers and (lack of) affordability in central London for years!

By confusing low-paid workers with WFH employees, by assuming that only low paid workers are at risk and losing out whilst others are not and clearly proves you are just confusing your opinion with actual facts and basically talking absolute rubbish.

The thread is about WORKING FROM HOME, not what tax rate your salary comes under...

I'm still WFH and hate it. Definitely not as productive, losing motivation,team bond beginning to unravel.
It really isnt the answer for everyone