Humiliating colleague...

[PicklePig31]

Hello fellow Mumsnetters, I need some advice...

What would you do about a colleague who continuously makes comments/put downs in front of other people?

Examples of these so far include:

1: Whilst talking about childcare and discussing experiences (she doesn’t have kids) saying ‘PicklePig dont say you understand, you only have one dc and I have none, we don’t get it at all’.

2: Whilst in a meeting with other members of staff I was voicing my point of view over an issue and she put her hand up next to me to tell me to stop talking (this woman is my line manager).

3: Comments like ‘no one cares picklepig’ ‘you need to think of the positives...’ (after we’d had a serious safety incident in our workplace) and ‘you’ve had such a sheltered life’.

This woman is younger than me, clearly has a massive chip on her shoulder about life but really I’m looking for strategies/ways to deal with her when we return to work in a week.

Help!

I’m sorry you’re having such a crappy time at work. It’s amazing how just one person being horrible can totally ruin your work experience, even if you like everyone else.
Firstly you need to sit down and write down as many examples of her behaviour as you can remember.
I don’t agree that people behave like this because they are not challenged. She’s being a bitch and she knows it.
I think there’s an organisational problem in many places where there is corporate memory and an attitude of “oh that’s just xxxx, it’s what they’re like”.
There’s some great advice on here, particularly from @Iminthewrongstory.
What you absolutely mustn’t do is show her you are upset, or get upset in front of her. Good luck 💐

Discuss with colleagues, I'm sure your after the only person who's noticed this.

Once you know you have some allies, then you can sit back and just share a knowing glance next time she is awful. She'll soon catch on that nobody likes her.

aren't*

Don’t you have regular 1:1 catch ups to discuss progress, problems, work life balance etc?

You should and you should bring it up then.

How did you respond/deal with the three examples you gave in your OP @PicklePig31?

You got some excellent advice by previous posters here OP.

I wanted to also add that if you have a Union to consider joining as they can support you.

Good luck, it sounds very taxing.

Thanks everyone... really good advice here. I’m a teacher and unfortunately, there are many examples of over promoted people that act like this - good teachers but terrible line managers... I am part of a Union and they know everything as I rang them to ask for advice...

@BIWI I responded with..

1. Rolled my eyes. She’s aware that I have one child but I also look after my family members kids during holidays so quite clearly I do understand how parenthood works.

1. During the meeting I sat in shock. It was like an out of body experience. I couldn’t believe it had happened. Another PP said about dominating meetings. Not sure I do that, but a lot of people are passive and her boss (who was chairing the meeting) will always ask me (and others) to contribute as they know I’ll have something to say.

1. In response to the ‘sheltered life’ comment. The context was over a safety issue regarding pupils. I said ‘do not normalise what has happened’ (it was a serious incident) as she was implying that it wasn’t that bad (it was!) and I was overreacting. I got shouted at for saying that, and she walked off.

What a bloody mess.

@bestnest

The next time she does anything, I would respond very coolly and calmly "if you continue to belittle and berate me, we will be sitting down with HR" then walk off. She'll be totally freaked out.

Or keep a record of all the things she has said to you, and have a meeting with her to take her through it. The main point here being that she'll see you've documented it all. She'll be very concerned about anyone else seeing it, so I would hope this would help change her behaviour.

As the colleague is your line manager, I don't think this is great advice, OP. You would be alerting her to your concerns, and giving her the opportunity to 'get her revenge in first' by complaining about your performance or giving you a bad appraisal. Then, if you try to put in a grievance, it will just look like sour grapes, and an underperforming employee trying to get back at her manager. If you get into a 'He said/she said' with HR, they are likely to back her, because it's easier to believe the senior manager in this sort of case (I'm not saying it's right, but that's the reality. HR work for your bosses, not for you).

I would quietly, and without alerting her, collect evidence. In the meantime, I would handle each incident as coolly as I could (easier said than done, I know!). E.g. with the one in a meeting, pretend that you haven't noticed her trying to stop you and carry on speaking,

I was going to try the approach of ‘did you mean to come across as belittling/humiliating?’ and then walk away cool as a cucumber. This sounds like a fantasy. You really don’t have to have clever scenarios worked out. It would be better to start being more direct and stop holding on to upset.

So if you don’t like her holding up her hand to stop you talking, just say so. If you want your parenting recognised and not dismissed say so. If you disagree on the response to an incident say so. You really don’t need to pole other staff on what she’s like or how she behaves. You can disagree with both them and her on what is ok to say and do.

Write everything down with dates and witnesses. Take it to HR. It's that simple.

I was going to try the approach of ‘did you mean to come across as belittling/humiliating?’ and then walk away cool as a cucumber. This sounds like a fantasy

Agree. This sort of response only works in a MN fantasy world. In the real world, it allows people to label you as over-sensitive or paranoid. It also lets her know that she is getting to you, which may be what she wants.

You have to play her at her own game. Use management speak, use existing policies. Be a boring 'do it by the book' nerd, not someone who can be accused of being over-emotional - the latter plays right into her hands because it allows her to dismiss your concerns. E.g. with the safeguarding one, say neutrally "I don't think our personal backgrounds are the issue here, this is about safeguarding". Don't rise to her bait. @Iminthewrongstory has given you good advice.

Thank you
@MissLucyEyelesbarrow @Itisbetter very good advice. I completely agree and I’m glad you’ve both said this.

The meeting incident should definitely have been challenged, but not by you.
She was undermining whoever called the meeting and invited you to attend. I'm surprised they didn't pull her up for it at the time.
Whatever the culture, no-one appreciates their meetings being highjacked for spite.

'Thanks @bestnest. I was going to try the approach of ‘did you mean to come across as belittling/humiliating?’ and then walk away cool as a cucumber'

Try and avoid phrasing something as a question if you're planning on walking away. It'll come across as sarcastic rather than constructive and she can dress it up to look like you didn't give her a chance to repsond. Make whatever you say a statement instead.

Ugh, she sounds awful.
Her attitude over the incident re safety sounds appalling.
She shouldn't be stopping you talking in a meeting or making comments about how many kids you do or dont have.
I'd not engage with it but keep a record and go over her head. Why are there SO many unbearable people in the workplace?!

She's a bully Pickle and you've illustrated perfectly how they are allowed to operate. "It's her way" is such a common example. Go to her line manager with your complaints - have others been through the same with her? Would they also be willing to complain? If not it could came across that you are the one with the problem.

I wish you well but I am pessimistic. If she is well-liked this is in her favour and nothing will change. Best of luck.

I used to work with a man who would talk over the top of me in meetings or try to stop me talking similarly. How I dealt with it was by being completely open about what he was doing. "You are now trying to stop me expressing myself in a meeting that I am an equal part of". "You are now talking over the top of me to stop me expressing my opinion". "I disagree with you. Why can you not let me express myself?". When the arsehole behaviour was pointed out openly in front of everyone else, he got his act together pretty quickly.

There's policies for things like these. Follow them and put in a complaint.

I agree with what @MissLucyEyelesbarrow' s says. Keeping calm is very useful and I certainly wouldn't jump to an HR complaint based on what you've said. That is something that can cause long term damage in a working relationship and can bring counter claims. In teaching it is common for people to get promoted who aren't actually good managers, so it is possible that it's her lack of experience and understanding rather than malice. Also some of it just sounds odd - who cares if you have 1 or 20 children? She may feel she has to be controlling in order to be the boss. Whereas you may have to teach her how to be a good line manager to you.

If she actively begins thwarting your career or affecting your mental health then that's another matter.

@sonjadog, I've done similar.

On one occasion, I just carried on talking but said digressed in the time it took to say "I haven't finished speaking, Bill", the next time it was "I'm still talking, Bill" and the 3rd time, I just sat back and smiled, then carried on from where I left off with "As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted..." at which point, he had the decency to blush.

He never did it again.

The 'being shouted at' when you were pressing your point kind of indicates to me that she's been promoted beyond her area of expertise at managing people. She may be excellent at her job, but she's clearly had no training in how to actually manage her way through situations that involve other adults.

And you are worried that if you challenge her she will start the back stabbing?

Well, if she takes a dislike to you for any reason she will start the back stabbing; she may already have started. So what do you have to lose by challenging her behaviour? I've found that a cool silence when someone talks across you, or tells you you don't (or can't) understand or tells you off for interrupting or talking too long - then followed by a simple repeat of what you were saying, does the trick. Your silence highlights just how awful what she said is and then (after a two second silent pause) you repeat your point shows that you will not back down.

Calmly repeating back what they’ve said ie. You want me to stop talking? Works well. It’s easier to remember when the rug’s been pulled from under your feet, often highlights they’re being unreasonable and all you’re doing is clarifying so you don’t feel like a troublemaker.

Another example I have is regarding emailing. I had to email her over something that had been changed for next year and she would then email the relevant people (hate this but just followed the chain of command). The issue I’d raised was difficult as someone above her had changed something that would directly impact our roles in school. I emailed her (extremely annoyed) but before I did, having awareness of how email can come across, I showed the email to others to make sure the wording was okay (I didn’t want to be pulled up on anything!). Four people (teachers from other schools) said it was absolutely perfect - firm but fair.

Shit however, hit the fan as my line manager said the tone wasn’t acceptable and we had an online meeting over this where she admitted (I challenged her over this) that what I wrote was okay but she knew I was annoyed (as she ‘knows me’ ) and said I need to give her, my senior, more respect.

I feel like I can’t win/do my job correctly because I’m constantly worrying about things like the examples given today are going to be construed.

Are you sure that the problem is 100% on your colleague’s side? Be really honest with yourself before you start off down the road of evidence gathering and formal complaints.

You tell us that your colleague ‘clearly has a massive chip on her shoulder about life’. How do you know that? You also tell us that she is younger than you. Reading those two statements together makes me wonder whether you resent her for being younger than you and more senior, and whether that is what’s driving your reaction. Only you will know whether that’s the case, but if there’s any possibility I suggest that you consider carefully how you will appear to the school’s senior management team if you go forward with a complaint.

Re the three incidents you gave as examples:

1. Were you banging on about the specifics of your own childcare arrangements to people who don’t have children and/or weren’t interested? It’s possible that everyone glazed over and you didn’t notice. In which case your colleague, rather clumsily admittedly, tried to close you down. I wonder whether that’s what “I have none, we don’t get it at all” meant: they aren’t interested in talking about your childcare. I wouldn’t be either.

1. Is it possible that you were “voicing your opinion” at great length without offering solutions? Is it possible that you had lost the room already and hadn’t noticed? If I were in that position I’d expect my line manager to intervene: better for everybody. My CFO once put her hand on my arm in a meeting when she spotted that I was getting annoyed about something, to tell me to leave it. I didn’t mind; sometimes it’s difficult to tell when you’re about to cross a line.

1. Is it possible that you had, in fact, over-exaggerated this ‘safety issue’ and wouldn’t let it go? If I were in that position, ie a problem had been found, it was acknowledged and a solution was found, I wouldn’t be happy if somebody in my team continued to go on and on about it. It rather smacks of you trying to make sure that she takes what you consider to be her share of the blame and won’t rest until you have her scalp. In which case, I can see why she reacted as she did.

The problem with posts like this is that we only get one half of the story. What you have described does not sound like ‘continuous put downs in front of other people’ and nor does it sound ‘humiliating’. Rather brusque, yes, but you need to consider whether your behaviour in those situations was everything it should have been. It’s easy to pile on with “keep a log of comments” and “report her!”. How do we know that you are not the (passive) aggressor, provoking your colleague because you don’t like that she’s younger than you but more senior?

I just wanted to say I have just been through exactly the same thing with my line manager who is 20 years my junior and in the end I lost it and phoned her boss for a chat. It has stopped it dead. She had belittled all of us as every opportunity, worded every e Mail to be as cutting as possible, and I was not the first to complain. Her boss obviously had a strong word, and they are sort of family so I was not expecting much support. I am still working from home, but have decided to call out every instance at the time going forward, as pp said, and without being rude. Honestly my mental health was starting to suffer at being put down all the time. It is not who I am. Good luck, document everything.