AIBU for not eating meat on moral grounds?

[ShouldWeChangeTheBulb]

I have been with my partner for 12 years and haven’t eaten meat since I was about 9 years old, so I haven’t eaten meat the whole time I’ve known him.
Today after walking passed some pigs on a nice open air farm I made a comment about how intelligent pigs are and that it’s a shame that that is not always how they are treated. I said that I thought modern farming is cruel and immoral.
My partner, who eats meat, got upset with me and started sulking and refusing to talk to me. When I asked him why he was upset he repeatedly said I was a bigot for saying that eating meat, when farmed by modern standards, was immoral. I argued my point and talked about the environmental impact and the and the cruelty to animals but also said that I felt the dairy industry is immoral but I drink milk so it’s not like I feel morally superior to anyone.
He just said that anyone who has moral surety is ‘suspicious’ and a bigot.
I can’t understand why he didn’t realise I felt this way, surly it’s obvious that I think it’s morally wrong otherwise I’d eat meat. I have always told people, when asked, that it’s a moral choice because I feel modern farming is wrong but I don’t try to convert people or go on about it, this is the first time he’s heard me say anything like that in 12 years.
AIBU and a bigot for thinking modern farming is immoral?

The meat eater is not saying to avoid vegetables, unlike the vegetarian who wants people to stop eating meat. They are pointing out that veg are in many cases no better than meat.

The point is that meat eaters like to think this is a counter argument to veganism when it’s anything but.

If you eat meat, then you’re responsible for the deaths of the animals killed in the production of the plants you consume, the animals killed so you can eat them directly, and the animals killed in the production of the food given to the animals you eat.

By going vegan, you cut out two of those groups. You can’t completely eliminate animal death from your diet; but you can vastly reduce it.

Meat eaters saying ‘it’s totally fine for me to kill and eat this pig because it’s no different to you eating corn that caused three mice to die’ is completely nonsensical when meat eaters are also eating corn (and animals that eat corn).

There were articles few days back about how people should ditch soy milk for cow's milk due to sustainability according to Sustainable Food Trust. Interesting

@SchrodingersImmigrant

There were articles few days back about how people should ditch soy milk for cow's milk due to sustainability according to Sustainable Food Trust. Interesting

Are soya milk and cows milk the only two options? Personally I prefer oat milk.

If everyone in the world went vegan famine would result.

@derxa

If everyone in the world went vegan famine would result.

This. But it wouldn't be in the west so we'd find another thing to blame it on. We are never the losers.

Don,t talk about the horrors of modern farming when you drink milk. What do you think happens to the bulls?

I do tire of this all or nothing ‘oh but pesticides kill some animals so there’s no point bothering’. I teach my DC not to hit eachother but occasionally tempers flare and they don’t play nicely. I don’t shrug and go ‘ah no point with the parenting then, survival of the fittest guys, have at it’

We’re a blended family of vegans, pescatarians and omnivores. We talk openly about how animals become some people’s food- the omnovore kids found watching Babe a bit uncomfortable but that’s ok- it’s a choice they can make if they want and there’s no judgement but also no sugar coating.

@derxa

If everyone in the world went vegan famine would result.

Any data to back this up? Absolute tosh.

Any data to back this up? Absolute tosh
Vast monocultures, failed crops, man made fertilizers, and add in global
warming.
Be vegan if you like but don't inflict it on other people

So true that some factory farming is completely unethical it's a different issue from actually eating meat imo. If animals are raised in welfare friendly conditions and slaughtered in a humane manner it's quite different they can still have a happy and comfortable life not a painful tortured one. Of course some people are still against killing them but I think we should make a distinction. Otherwise there's a danger we will turn blind eye to animal cruelty because "all livestock farming is cruel" in that it leads to slaughter. Yet in a welfare friendly system animals can live comfortably in fairly natural conditions, and even have a beneficial effect on the environment or at least do no harm to it. You don't have to be a vegan to want farm animals to be well treated and raised in an environmentally friendly way.

I'm really surprised this hasn't come up before, although I dont think your point is unreasonable, you have basically said your DP is immoral, so I can understand why he is upset.

I do eat meat but was vegetarian for 20 years. I now eat meat a couple of times a week but I do believe in animals having a good quality of life and using every part of an animal rather than having an awful life.

nicky7654 on halal meat, there are many videos of animals being slaughtered that are not halal through unethical practices. But the PP is correct its killed the same way as other meat, if you have an issue with that you shouldn't eat meat at all.

@derxa

Any data to back this up? Absolute tosh Vast monocultures, failed crops, man made fertilizers, and add in global warming. Be vegan if you like but don't inflict it on other people

Be a meat eater if you like, but don't inflict death on animals in the process... Oh wait.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

There were articles few days back about how people should ditch soy milk for cow's milk due to sustainability according to Sustainable Food Trust. Interesting

Nottingham university funded this research... They also have a £6m 'dairy centre'. No vested interest at all there then.

I prefer oat milk

He has apologised for calling me a bigot.
But he is still sulking a bit and acting hurt and that will likely go on till tomorrow but that’s another thread.
I don’t feel that not eating meat but drinking milk makes me anymore hypocritical than anyone else. I recycle and care about the planet but I still drive a car. Is everything all or nothing?
I wasn’t preaching to him but If he’d said ‘alright little miss perfect’ or even said ‘actually that’s offensive’ it would have been reasonable but I was surprised with such a massive reaction. Especially as he isn’t someone who is delicate about his opinions.
I didn’t mean to misrepresent my AIBU. My logic is by stating my view as not eating meat for moral reasons it is by definition making a judgement on the people that do.
I’m not sure why he hasn’t heard that opinion from me before as people do ask and I always say I don’t agree with the meat industry. But maybe that hasn’t been in front of him or he hasn’t really taken it on board before.
I do think that there are ways to farm meat that are significantly better than others. I know some people that raise chickens for meat and they are spoilt. I wouldn’t eat it myself but to me that’s a more nuanced debate. I thought most people agreed that the meat industry is problematic but it just isn’t the hill they choose to die on.
I think the trigger word here has been ‘moral’ perhaps my use of the word was meant to be slightly lighter than he understood it and I think he has taken it as me saying he has no principles.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html
So many issues highlighted in this article

Industrial modern farming isn't good for animals and dairy farming is as bad as any part of it.
So he is being unreasonable as neither of you are better or worse morally than the other in terms of animal welfare.
As you said you eat dairy so can't hold any moral high ground.
Hopefully he will realize you weren't being critical of him and don't consider yourself to be any position to be even if you wanted to.

@ClaraJude

The meat eater is not saying to avoid vegetables, unlike the vegetarian who wants people to stop eating meat. They are pointing out that veg are in many cases no better than meat.

The point is that meat eaters like to think this is a counter argument to veganism when it’s anything but.

If you eat meat, then you’re responsible for the deaths of the animals killed in the production of the plants you consume, the animals killed so you can eat them directly, and the animals killed in the production of the food given to the animals you eat.

By going vegan, you cut out two of those groups. You can’t completely eliminate animal death from your diet; but you can vastly reduce it.

Meat eaters saying ‘it’s totally fine for me to kill and eat this pig because it’s no different to you eating corn that caused three mice to die’ is completely nonsensical when meat eaters are also eating corn (and animals that eat corn).

That's not really indicative of the type of difference between them though, is it?

Industrial agriculture is non-sustainable whether it involves plants or animals, and it's deeply destructive of habitat and the environment. Death aren't "three mice" you are talking, even only purely directly, about millions of insects and rodents. It's reliant on the oil industry as well, which again, is deeply destructive of habitat and the environment.

All animals and plants die, as individuals. In nature, most die young, and most die through violence, if they are lucky, or starvation, disease, and exposure, if they are not. Every healthy ecosytem depends on animal and plant death, that's what feeds the soil, and what makes the ecosystem work. If you want to stop creatures from death, the only real possibility is stopping things from being born.

A vegan is just as fundamentally dependent on a healthy ecosystem as anyone else, dependent on the deaths of plants and animals, and part of that cycle. Our bodies are all made of dead creatures. An attempt to step away from that by not eating meant is an attempt at a ritual purity. But it's fundamentally an illusion, which prevents really taking responsibility for our place within the whole, and understanding what is required for us to live.

I think yabu to preach about pig welfare but consume dairy which is a lot worse. These cows have their babies torn away from them so we can drink the milk that their mum is producing for them.

YABU....Because you a hypocrit. Modern Farming is bad until I need milk but thats ok? Not jow that works. Also, dairy cows are not treated too well at all

If you are interested in a higher welfare dairy have a look at the ethical dairy they have some great cheeses.

for saying that eating meat, when farmed by modern standards, was immoral.

Tis mostly immoral yeah. Of more immediate concern is your relationship and the fact that the two of you seem to hold different underlying values. Always a bit tricky that.

@Dillydallyingthrough

I'm really surprised this hasn't come up before, although I dont think your point is unreasonable, you have basically said your DP is immoral, so I can understand why he is upset.

I do eat meat but was vegetarian for 20 years. I now eat meat a couple of times a week but I do believe in animals having a good quality of life and using every part of an animal rather than having an awful life.

nicky7654 on halal meat, there are many videos of animals being slaughtered that are not halal through unethical practices. But the PP is correct its killed the same way as other meat, if you have an issue with that you shouldn't eat meat at all.

You are completely wrong. Other meat is killed by stunning. Stunning is forbidden by Halal regulations. Personally, I prefer halal meat. It tastes better and they are treated with respect. Killed by hand with a prayer other than killed by machines. Halal animals are killed the same way I kill animals. As quickly as possible instead of lingering. Stunning just makes people feel better. Not the animals. Just because they are stunned(which is painful) doesn't mean they can't feel pain.

@KetoPenguin

So true that some factory farming is completely unethical it's a different issue from actually eating meat imo. If animals are raised in welfare friendly conditions and slaughtered in a humane manner it's quite different they can still have a happy and comfortable life not a painful tortured one. Of course some people are still against killing them but I think we should make a distinction. Otherwise there's a danger we will turn blind eye to animal cruelty because "all livestock farming is cruel" in that it leads to slaughter. Yet in a welfare friendly system animals can live comfortably in fairly natural conditions, and even have a beneficial effect on the environment or at least do no harm to it. You don't have to be a vegan to want farm animals to be well treated and raised in an environmentally friendly way.

What do you consider a humane way to slaughter? Causing great pain through stunning them? Javing chickens literally gasping for breath while they are being gassed?

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire posted:

"How do you humanely slaughter something?

Although while we are on the topic, do you think it would be possible to get free range/RSPCA approved dog meat in China? Do you think it would stop all those people protesting the dog meat trade? Assuming it's all about how the animals are treated then I guess it will be okay?"

Well, a quick death, preferably where the animal is stunned first and has no sight of other animals being slaughtered ahead of them, would seem to be the most humane way of doing it, but I'm sure other people (eg. vets) could suggest what best practice in this field looks like. I know that over the years methods in the UK have been improved, but no doubt there is room for further improvements.

The dog meat trade in China is another matter completely. There are just so many things wrong with it, morally and hygiene-wise, that it would need its own thread. If I listed here all the many vile things that happen to animals in China and other places in the far east, and expressed how angry and upset it makes me feel, I'd be banned, for sure. I'll just say that I would never visit those countries, due to my feelings on that subject. Also, I want our govt to support UK farmers more, as our animal husbandry standards are much higher than other countries, and our farmers should be encouraged to raise standards even higher. I buy British meat only.

www.bbc.com/future/article/20200806-the-biblical-east-african-locust-plagues-of-2020
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