AIBU for not eating meat on moral grounds?

[ShouldWeChangeTheBulb]

I have been with my partner for 12 years and haven’t eaten meat since I was about 9 years old, so I haven’t eaten meat the whole time I’ve known him.
Today after walking passed some pigs on a nice open air farm I made a comment about how intelligent pigs are and that it’s a shame that that is not always how they are treated. I said that I thought modern farming is cruel and immoral.
My partner, who eats meat, got upset with me and started sulking and refusing to talk to me. When I asked him why he was upset he repeatedly said I was a bigot for saying that eating meat, when farmed by modern standards, was immoral. I argued my point and talked about the environmental impact and the and the cruelty to animals but also said that I felt the dairy industry is immoral but I drink milk so it’s not like I feel morally superior to anyone.
He just said that anyone who has moral surety is ‘suspicious’ and a bigot.
I can’t understand why he didn’t realise I felt this way, surly it’s obvious that I think it’s morally wrong otherwise I’d eat meat. I have always told people, when asked, that it’s a moral choice because I feel modern farming is wrong but I don’t try to convert people or go on about it, this is the first time he’s heard me say anything like that in 12 years.
AIBU and a bigot for thinking modern farming is immoral?

Why is it morally any better for an animal to be killed so that someone can consume dairy as opposed to an animal being killed so that someone can consume meat? Why is one deemed less morally dubious than the other?

What would happen in the UK if we all went vegan is that we would be more heavily reliant on food imported from the other side of then world. I am not confident that this wouldn't lead to environmental impact in these places, or food shortages amongst local populations. Meanwhile we would do what - shrug our shoulders and tell them that we could grow alot of protein in our own country but decided it wasn't morally sound, and we'd rather eat Brazilian soya instead?

80% of the world’s soy crop is fed to livestock, so please don’t hold vegans and vegetarians responsible for the destruction it causes.

In terms of the environmental impact, a kilo of locally produced, grass fed British lamb produces 46 times as much CO2 as a kilo of avocados imported from Mexico. There is simply no environmental argument in favour of eating meat, even if that meat is literally produced on your doorstep.

Causing food shortages in areas which produce the food we import is a valid concern that everyone should be aware of (let’s not fall into the idiotic trap of assuming only vegans and vegetarians eat avocados and quinoa). But the picture is nuanced. For example, people often suggest that rising demand for quinoa in the west is responsible for depriving Bolivians and Peruvians of a staple grain and leaving them hungry. And it’s true that this increased demand has pushed up the price of quinoa in those countries. But it’s also true that it only ever made up 4% of staple diets anyway: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-you-can-eat-quinoa-with-a-clear-conscience-1.3376690

It’s always a good idea to source ethical produce. You shouldn’t be buying coffee and chocolate that aren’t free trade. You should only buy sustainable palm oil products. You shouldn’t buy Mexican avocados or Israeli peppers. These are all good consumer practices.

But too often these criticisms at levelled exclusively at vegans and vegetarians by meat eaters using it as a sop for their own conscience, when the reality is that meat eaters consume just as much of these products and are certainly no more conscientious than vegans / veggies in avoiding them.

[quote Defenbaker]@SJaneS48 I agree with the stance taken by the animal welfare charity that your DH works for. I see no moral problem with eating eat, provided that animals have a decent quality of life and are slaughtered humanely. The problem is that a lot of meat is produced using intensive farming methods, which are bad for animals and humans alike, as meat is so cheap and plentiful that people eat much more of it than is good for them.

I eat small amounts of meat, but not every day. I buy free range/RSPCA approved meat when possible. I happily pay more for such meat, but I realise there are many people who can't afford to. There are also people who can afford to pay more, but won't, because they just don't care about animal welfare at all. Those people are often not very likeable, IME.[/quote]
How do you humanely slaughter something?

Although while we are on the topic, do you think it would be possible to get free range/RSPCA approved dog meat in China? Do you think it would stop all those people protesting the dog meat trade? Assuming it's all about how the animals are treated then I guess it will be okay?

Where are you getting protein from?

Oh dear.

Where are you getting protein from? Do you know that we could produce sufficient vegan protein in the UK to replace what we'd give up from meat/dairy?

Why does vegan protein have to be produced in the U.K.?

For one thing, imported beef accounts for 23% of beef consumption in this country, so the U.K.’a meat eaters aren’t exclusively consuming local, home grown beef from the nice farm down the road (despite what is always claimed on mumsnet).

For another, transport costs account for a tiny fraction of the carbon footprint of our diets, so it’s still environmentally preferable to import vegan protein than consume british meat.

We rely on imported goods for a vast range of things without which this country would crumble. Nobody cares. But when it comes to food, people suddenly claim deep seated fears about food security because they don’t want to face up to the reality that eating meat causes enormous harm.

I completely agree with you op YANBU.

In terms of the environmental impact, a kilo of locally produced, grass fed British lamb produces 46 times as much CO2 as a kilo of avocados imported from Mexico. There is simply no environmental argument in favour of eating meat, even if that meat is literally produced on your doorstep

Have you a source to back that up? I've had a google but all I can find relates to lamb produced in the USA and not British grass fed lamb. A lot of the stuff seems to indicate that it's talking about British lamb but when you actually look at the source it's the same study from the US.

There is also the argument that the type of pasture land maintained for beef and lamb in the UK sequesters carbon, vastly reducing the 'carbon footprint' of beef and lamb.

@ClaraJude

Besides meat eaters eat vegetables too

Somehow this crucial fact always seems to be forgotten!

It's totally not the point.

The meat eater is not saying to avoid vegetables, unlike the vegetarian who wants people to stop eating meat. They are pointing out that veg are in many cases no better than meat.

They are asking for consistency, and possibly also pointing out that ethically produced food doesn't really divide along the line of animal/plant.

“The meat eater is not saying to avoid vegetables, unlike the vegetarian who wants people to stop eating meat”.

Absolute rubbish! Many of us believe it’s individual choice. The stereotypes of vegetarians are so flipping annoying!

YANBU I've been vegetarian for 30 years.

nicky7654

you forgot to say "kosher"

I agree with you. I eat meat. I didn't invent hypocrisy. So sue me.

They are asking for consistency

Why? Does it really impact your life if someone is not consistent?

There is a lot of inconsistancy among meat eaters. Just look how many people will eat a bacon sandwich but suddenly become outraged when other countries eat dogs, cats or horses.

Look how many people support the protests against the dog meat trade but laugh at and get angry at vegans who protest against eating pigs.

Maybe...just maybe everyone is a hypocrite.

*inconsistency

A huge amount of crops are produced solely to feed animals which people then kill to eat. So the rabbits/bugs etc are all getting killed then too.

It's not a perfect world but surely it's the moral thing to do the least harm and slaughtering animals on a massive scale because meat eaters have been conditioned to see those animals as food is clearly, indisputably immoral.

You are only unreasonable for being with someone so blinkered.

because meat eaters have been conditioned to see those animals as food is clearly, indisputably immoral.
www.theguardian.com/science/2012/sep/23/human-hunting-evolution-2million-years

@ClaraJude

What would happen in the UK if we all went vegan is that we would be more heavily reliant on food imported from the other side of then world. I am not confident that this wouldn't lead to environmental impact in these places, or food shortages amongst local populations. Meanwhile we would do what - shrug our shoulders and tell them that we could grow alot of protein in our own country but decided it wasn't morally sound, and we'd rather eat Brazilian soya instead?

80% of the world’s soy crop is fed to livestock, so please don’t hold vegans and vegetarians responsible for the destruction it causes.

In terms of the environmental impact, a kilo of locally produced, grass fed British lamb produces 46 times as much CO2 as a kilo of avocados imported from Mexico. There is simply no environmental argument in favour of eating meat, even if that meat is literally produced on your doorstep.

Causing food shortages in areas which produce the food we import is a valid concern that everyone should be aware of (let’s not fall into the idiotic trap of assuming only vegans and vegetarians eat avocados and quinoa). But the picture is nuanced. For example, people often suggest that rising demand for quinoa in the west is responsible for depriving Bolivians and Peruvians of a staple grain and leaving them hungry. And it’s true that this increased demand has pushed up the price of quinoa in those countries. But it’s also true that it only ever made up 4% of staple diets anyway: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-you-can-eat-quinoa-with-a-clear-conscience-1.3376690

It’s always a good idea to source ethical produce. You shouldn’t be buying coffee and chocolate that aren’t free trade. You should only buy sustainable palm oil products. You shouldn’t buy Mexican avocados or Israeli peppers. These are all good consumer practices.

But too often these criticisms at levelled exclusively at vegans and vegetarians by meat eaters using it as a sop for their own conscience, when the reality is that meat eaters consume just as much of these products and are certainly no more conscientious than vegans / veggies in avoiding them.

Firstly, 1kg of lamb contains significantly more calories and protein than 1 kg avocados, - you aren't comparing two even remotely similar things. You'd need to take into account calorific value, protein level, and moisture content to begin to compare them.

Secondly, whilst currently veganism may not be distorting production and consumption patterns across the globe, that's because it is currently a minority lifestyle.

Thirdly, 'livestock production' isn't a homogenous thing. The volume of soya consumed by livestock in the UK is very small compared to America/South America. It isn't fair to produce a single statistic for environmental impact, different systems are radically different.

Fourthly, that kilo of UK lamb is produced in a way that sustains valuable habitats and ecology here in the UK and cannot be compared to Mexican production of avocados.

@BuffaloCauliflower No your so very wrong! Do more research. I have and I've watched secret recordings of how the poor animals are tortured before killing!! Any Hallal killing is vile.

@Boshmama

A huge amount of crops are produced solely to feed animals which people then kill to eat. So the rabbits/bugs etc are all getting killed then too.

It's not a perfect world but surely it's the moral thing to do the least harm and slaughtering animals on a massive scale because meat eaters have been conditioned to see those animals as food is clearly, indisputably immoral.

You are only unreasonable for being with someone so blinkered.

A huge amount of crops aren't, necessarily. Buy british lamb and virtually no crop will have gone into it. But it will likely have come from a home that sustains alot of valuable wildlife.

It's not as clear cut as people believe.

Not eating meat because you don't like the idea of an animal being killed I kinda get, everyone is entitled to have their own red lines. However not eating british meat because you think it's bad for the planet is very misguided.

@ClaraJude

What would happen in the UK if we all went vegan is that we would be more heavily reliant on food imported from the other side of then world. I am not confident that this wouldn't lead to environmental impact in these places, or food shortages amongst local populations. Meanwhile we would do what - shrug our shoulders and tell them that we could grow alot of protein in our own country but decided it wasn't morally sound, and we'd rather eat Brazilian soya instead?

80% of the world’s soy crop is fed to livestock, so please don’t hold vegans and vegetarians responsible for the destruction it causes.

In terms of the environmental impact, a kilo of locally produced, grass fed British lamb produces 46 times as much CO2 as a kilo of avocados imported from Mexico. There is simply no environmental argument in favour of eating meat, even if that meat is literally produced on your doorstep.

Causing food shortages in areas which produce the food we import is a valid concern that everyone should be aware of (let’s not fall into the idiotic trap of assuming only vegans and vegetarians eat avocados and quinoa). But the picture is nuanced. For example, people often suggest that rising demand for quinoa in the west is responsible for depriving Bolivians and Peruvians of a staple grain and leaving them hungry. And it’s true that this increased demand has pushed up the price of quinoa in those countries. But it’s also true that it only ever made up 4% of staple diets anyway: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-you-can-eat-quinoa-with-a-clear-conscience-1.3376690

It’s always a good idea to source ethical produce. You shouldn’t be buying coffee and chocolate that aren’t free trade. You should only buy sustainable palm oil products. You shouldn’t buy Mexican avocados or Israeli peppers. These are all good consumer practices.

But too often these criticisms at levelled exclusively at vegans and vegetarians by meat eaters using it as a sop for their own conscience, when the reality is that meat eaters consume just as much of these products and are certainly no more conscientious than vegans / veggies in avoiding them.

The way you are talking about these measurements is still based on an industrial agriculture model. Which goes a long way to showing how little many people really understand how a sustainable farming model would work.

Even soy fed to cattle is often part of a larger industrial model where some parts of the crop are used for human consumption and others are fed to animals. Many many crops humans eat we only use part of, and so the other parts are used as feed, because that is a way of converting the enourmous soy harvest into a more expensive product. The soy harvest itself in those instances is deeply degrading for the environment, even if we didn't feed any to cows.

On the other hand, in a temperate sustainable farm in a place like the UK, soy will often be grown in a rotation, maybe with corn, and a break for grass which will be grazed by some animal. That helps maintain soil fertility and health, and the manure from the animals is part of that cycle and uses the grass as part of what ultimately feeds us. And the animals even walk around the field and deposit it themselves rather than requiring machinery to accomplish the same things. It's also much better for biodiversity.

Modelling of different kids of diets doesn't show vegan diets as particularly environmentally efficient, they seem to come in only ahead of standard western diets. Which makes sense really, if veganism was environmentally efficient that is the kind of farming we'd see in marginal environments where they needed to extract as many calories as possible from the land. In fact we don't see that at all, historically veganism doesn't exist and even vegetarianism is confined to the rich within certain societies and is part of a mixed farming system.

@SJaneS48

“The meat eater is not saying to avoid vegetables, unlike the vegetarian who wants people to stop eating meat”.

Absolute rubbish! Many of us believe it’s individual choice. The stereotypes of vegetarians are so flipping annoying!

It's best to read the comment in the context of the comment it was responding to.

The point being that saying that meat eaters also eat vegetables is some kind of a response to pointing out that vegetables also involve loss of animal life and various environmental problems isn't a logical gotcha.

@Scrowy

Here you go - this contains a really good infographic that shows just how insignificant the origin of your food is compared to what you’re actually eating: ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local

There is also this article: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/revealed-the-enormous-carbon-footprint-linked-to-eating-avocado-a3591501.html%3famp

And this, about how the food miles argument is much more nuanced than most people realise: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2008/mar/23/food.ethicalliving

I found it really eye opening.

@nicky7654 trust me, this is RSPCA data, they want to you think halal is awful but really it’s no more awful that killing any other animal for food. There’s no nice way to murder an animal for your pleasure - and that’s all it is, pleasure, there’s no health need to eat meat in this country it’s just a want. You can easily choose to eat something else where an animal wasn’t killed.

@EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire

They are asking for consistency

Why? Does it really impact your life if someone is not consistent?

There is a lot of inconsistancy among meat eaters. Just look how many people will eat a bacon sandwich but suddenly become outraged when other countries eat dogs, cats or horses.

Look how many people support the protests against the dog meat trade but laugh at and get angry at vegans who protest against eating pigs.

Maybe...just maybe everyone is a hypocrite.

If people are having a discussion about the ethics of food, I'd expect them to discuss the ethics of food. Logical or ethical consistency is like a valid part of that discussion. If someone has an issue with eating horse and not pig, that would be something to talk about, yes. Just like being ok with industrial farming of crops but not meat, and not understanding that they are inter-dependant.

In this instance, the OP was the one telling her meat-eating boyfriend that his diet is unethical, he didn't bring it up.

YANBU for saying that modern farming methods are unethical.

YABU for not eating meat for moral reasons while still eating eggs and dairy. These are as bad as, if not worse than, the meat industry ethically. It's really got to be all or nothing if there's a moral element to it.