Harry Potter was badly written

[Stackys]

I’ve seen this said on here a few times, that the books are badly written and she’s a terrible author who just got lucky.

Why do people say this? The world she created was amazing, what’s wrong with the books?

@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander

Equally well it's unlikely Harry would have had enough confidence after that to say "there's no need to call me sir, professor" to Snape in a new school the first time he's met a teacher.

Thats not the first time he meets Snape though. That line isn't until book 5? 6? Can't remember which exactly but its a later one.

Sorry, yes.

I've just checked to see, as my memory was him getting a laugh on his first lesson.
It's the bit when Snape is picking on him, he says "I don't know, but I think Hermione does, why don't you try her?" That would take an awful lot of confidence to say that, don't you think?

i wish more people would look deeper into her books, so full of religious, classical, hermetic references. T

@Lifeisgenerallyfun

Oh yes - so many allusions. The old good vs evil. It's great stuff for children to read - I loved all of that kind of thing as a child.

Harry was sometimes a bit belligerent! I put it down to losing his parents so young and being brought up by the reluctant Dursley's in the broom cupboard.
He knew he wasn't really wanted and always had to be good , so first chance he gets to be a bit naughty and answer back he takes it : not a good person to pick on though as Snape is seriously scary. I think he often shows flashes of being a rebel and can be difficult and also breaks the wizard laws as well when pushed!

Oh yes. That would take a lot of courage.
That said I was exceptionally well behaved at school. Never got a detention. One day we had a new teacher and he said something to me and I just snapped. Was really rude to him in my reply and got sent out of the room. It was so unlike me, and my whole class confirmed that to him. I have no idea where the answer came from! I was older than 11 though. About 13 I think.
I guess Harry has learnt, from the way he's treated at home, that he will be in trouble whether he's actually naughty/rude or not and therefore answers in a way he probably shouldn't without meaning to.
Or maybe JKR just wrote it without thinking

Not read every post but...

She is not the greatest writer IMO, in terms of writing interesting, well-executed prose - but most bestsellers are not written by people who are brilliant at that. What she is good at is world-building, all the details of the world, names for things, and exciting events, and the plot works quite well considering the massive task she set herself.

I do agree she should have been edited more heavily and better as the books got longer and longer - because they were doing so well they probably didn't want to interfere.

And yes it's all a bit middle class and the ethnic minorities are tokenistic but it's basically a boarding school series, that's what they are like. And if a white writer tries to authentically write about other ethnicities they get bollocked for that too. At the time she was writing, I reckon she did what she advisedly thought best in that regard.

I think it's a shame that Harry is a boy and not a girl, in terms of treading well-worn paths - and that the main female character is a stereotyped bossy swot, so that's my main complaint.

Why does it matter?

People read them and love them. They're obviously able to draw people in. That doesn't make writing 'good' but why split hairs unless you're planning to use it as a GCSE text?

There's more than one way to be a good writer.

I do agree there are lots of erudite references, which I like.

I was a goody two shoes at school but the music teacher in year four caught me whispering between ' we'll make the keel row' and pulled me out to sit in the front for ages : I was mortified.
(Wish I could have turned her into a toad or a cat! )
The books are great but one character that stands out for me is Dolores Umbridge. How many of those types has everyone met in their life times and stalk the corridors of Westminster too ? ..

It's mentioned in one of the earlier books that Harry would snap at Dudley/give him cheek and run away as he knew he couldn't catch him, and I'm sure there were a couple of times that he gives his Uncle cheek (I can't remember off the top of my head).

When he is rude to Snape it's after a good few years of despising him, Harry being a hormonal adolescent and also as a Gryffindor: brave!

When I read the first one (to see what all the fuss was about), it took about 3 minutes until I was playing Spot the Merchandising Pitch in addition to Spot the Book That Was Ripped Off From.

They're terrible books. But at the same time as these came out, it was normal for computer-generated Rainbow Sparkle Princess Unicorn Fairies books to be the books of choice, so at least they had a human involved to more depth than selecting the colour, magical animal, element and particular spell on the equivalent of a search and replace.

The stories are fine, if derivative. She's not a great writer by any means. The books somehow captured collective imagination of children though and got them interested in reading. I was an adult by the time they came out and never managed to read past book 4 or 5 as the beginning was so dull

I don't think I the first book was written to be made into the franchise it became ; it just sort of took off and adults liked them and talked about them on tv. The internet wasn't around much in 97 and it was ' word of mouth' really that made people go and buy it. She had been turned down by many people before it was published so it shows that perseverance does pay off! Someone saw the potential eventually.
I'm not even sure why I got into them as I have tried other fantasy novels and not liked them , but HP just struck a chord back then. The outsider defeating the odds and befriending the other outsiders. An age old tale and intriguing as to who this Voldermort person really was too.
The last one came out when I was on holiday and every one was reading it around the pool , all adults!
I find Steven King novels a bit boring but many love his work and adore everything his ever written! It's all horses for courses isn't it? If it gets children reading , that's a good thing too.

I haven't RTFT yet, but @Bluesheep8, that is exactly what I came here to say. It is just The worst witch, with a gender swap!

*16:53WestendVBroadway

I haven't RTFT yet, but@Bluesheep8, that is exactly what I came here to say. It is just The worst witch, with a gender swap!*

Finally someone knows what I mean!!

They are after all children's books. The early ones especially are written for a fairly young audience. I wouldn't judge them by the standards of "high" literature. But they're great stories and deserving of their popularity.

Order is too long and I think Rowling knows that.

I'd also say that Rowling is a storyteller first, a worldbuilder second. In contrast to Tolkein who was much more a worldbuilder (but arguably even that was secondary to his language creation). That's why there are various issues and gripes in the "Wizarding World".

After listening to the books again my big question which I be only recently thought of is. How do students get to hogwarts are the start of term if they live closer to Hogwarts than Kings Cross.

All students must take the train from Kings Cross, with the possible exception of Hogsmeade residents who can just walk. It's a school rule basically. For some students this is a significant detour of course, but presumably Hogwarts doesn't care. Wizarding families have several options for quick travel. For Muggle-born students travelling to London is a fair journey from some parts of Britain and Ireland but it's still doable and has been since the rail network really got developed, and Hogwarts and the Ministry might prefer the Muggle parents didn't know much about where Hogwarts is.

@serenada, me too, it’s so interesting how this same concept can be played out over and over, usually with the same out come. Have you read Blake’s marriage of heaven and hell? I think it does add a new perspective on many of the good v evil stories when you re read them.

@JoysOfString 😁 and wouldn’t it be great if the references encouraged kids to read more widely to understand the references? If they read the story of Orpheus to see where fluffy came from or looked into the real, sometimes gruesome, history of the philosophers stone? Realised the spiritual alchemy referred to by JK when the stone appeared in Harry’s pocket?

But then people would rather comment on the sentence structure.

The setting is superficially similar to that of The Worst Witch but that's where the similarities end. The stories told are very different. And that setting, of a school for child witches and wizards, with magic based largely on myths and historical beliefs in the author's home country - it's hardly super imaginative to come up with.

There are "technical" flaws, especially in particular books. The first book is badly paced. The fifth book is very rambling and I remember being annoyed by it even as a young teenager. The last book goes a bit "epic final novel" in tone. But her genius lies in the imaginative detail, which allows you to really invest in and enter her universe.

Similarly, Noel Streatfeild's punctuation is eccentric to put it mildly (apparently her publishers were constantly asking her to work on spelling and punctuation), but it doesn't matter because her characters and their worlds and situations are real and absorbing.

These are issues that would be noticed by those who are interested in such matters, not by the intended audience! I'm also not a native speaker, so I'm very happy to be corrected on any points about the technicalities of the English language, lol.

She tells a good story and created a world that many love.
The first 3 books are fine but then she becomes mega famous & the books get really long. They're repetitive and could do with a good editor but shed become so famous no one did anything about it.

It is just The worst witch, with a gender swap!

It's not really, though. I like Jill Murphy a lot, but Mildred (presumably?) came from a magical family, there is no dark force for her to contend with or scope for epic showdown. Probably because the books are for younger readers. Yes, it's a school for witches and there are mean teachers and bullies. Yes, Mildred is probably a more engaging protagonist than Harry. (She's certainly more likeable than Hermione.)

I’m an English teacher. I’ve read all the HP books , some of the earlier ones more than once. They are gripping and create a compelling world that is detailed and with characters you care about. BUT the prose style and ideas are pretty simple. Someone like Phillip Pullman is a far better writer in terms of style. That’s fine though for her audience.

@Lifeisgenerallyfun

No, but I will look out for it now you’ve mentioned it.

Concept was very good. Overall story arch was very good if relatively simplistic. That's why they made a very good set of films.

Prose style is clunky and basic. We need the kids to read Terry Pratchett! Nuanced, well-written prose heavily laced with satire and social commentary.

In general, I love the books; and the films would be great if it wasn't for the planks of wood disguised as Harry and Hermione. The first book was a good length; in particular, I liked the way the whole of Hogwarts, the teachers and the lessons were summarised in a couple of pages at the beginning of the chapter "The Potions Master", unlike the extremely long descriptions in the later books.

But here are my small criticisms of the books:

• The slapstick with the Dursley scenes was really tedious, and almost stopped me reading the whole thing. It was only when somebody told me to persevere until he arrived at Hogwarts that I got into it.
• The way that all seven of the books begin with Harry at the Dursleys, and somebody dramatically turns up to rescue him.
• Certain descriptions are repeated a lot. "As a gold prospector sifts for gold" is used several times to describe Dumbledore shaking the Pensieve.
• Excessive use of capitals and shouting, especially by Uncle Vernon, and Harry, in Order of the Phoenix.
• Why does nobody steal Harry's highly valuable invisibility cloak? Snape and Malfoy have easy opportunities to do so, which they do not take.
• In the Triwizard Tournament, when the whole school are watching the lake and maze tasks, they don't see what's going on. What would they be looking at for an hour or more?
• Order of the Phoenix is especially slow to get going: there are about ten chapters including the hearing, which does almost nothing to move the plot forwards. I suppose you do really feel Harry's frustration though.
• When Dumbledore gives Harry the task of persuading Slughorn to divulge the true memory, why does he give Harry no hints at all with this? Or indeed, the same with the monstrous task of finding the Horcruxes? The having to keep it secret made the last book very tedious as well: a repeated line was "I can't tell you that, sorry." Presumably Dumbledore's reason for this was so that Voldemort wouldn't find out that's what they were up to, if too many people knew, but it was never stated.

@newyearnoeu Another Marauder's Map plot hole is: How does Harry get the map back, after Barty Crouch Junior (disguised as Moody) borrows it in Goblet of Fire, so that Harry doesn't see through his disguise? In the next book, he has it again, as if nothing happened.

An author's job is to sell books. That's what she does, more than 500 million of them. These writer friends people have, who say she can't write are probably jealous