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AIBU?

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Harry Potter was badly written

365 replies

Stackys · 19/08/2020 12:45

I’ve seen this said on here a few times, that the books are badly written and she’s a terrible author who just got lucky.

Why do people say this? The world she created was amazing, what’s wrong with the books?

OP posts:
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 19/08/2020 15:15

On a slightly related tangent, it always greatly irks me when it's mentioned on The Chase that Anne Hegerty is 'the second-best female quizzer in the world'. Quizzing and general knowledge are not physical sports where having a male body provides any kind of natural advantage - why ever is this in any way relevant, unless as a form of belittling and saying "Ooh, isn't she clever - especially for a woman! ? Sorry, derailing rant over.

caitlinohara · 19/08/2020 15:15

I liked a LOT of ‘badly written’ books - Enid Blyton as a child - Jack Reacher thrillers as an adult so I have no reason to get snotty about clunky prose and plot holes. I just thought HP was boring. Nothing seems to happen until the last few chapters. I am amazed that children are patient enough to enjoy them - but to be fair that’s the same as Enid Blyton, lots of scene setting and detail before you know what the story is about.

TheTurnOfTheScrew · 19/08/2020 15:20

I love JK Rowling and she plots beautifully - I have enjoyed The Casual Vacancy and a couple of the Galbraiths. The wizarding world is incredibly well realised. She is however no Mantel in the prose department. I'm reading The Half-Blood Prince to my 9yo at the moment and the prose is just a bit leaden, and repetitive. Compared with say Roald Dahl or Dodie Smith this makes them quite hard work for reading aloud. I think when you're racing through reading to yourself it's less noticeable.

CheesyMother · 19/08/2020 15:21

JKR’s editor changed between either the 3rd and 4th books or the 4th and 5th books... have can’t remember which. I think that made a big impact on them!

I was a massive Potter fan when younger (and still am, in my heart) but I didn’t think any of them were particularly well written. But that doesn’t mean that the stories weren’t absolutely captivating.

cariadlet · 19/08/2020 15:23

I disagree with the Jack Reacher novels being badly written. Lee Child knows the audience that he's aiming for and doesn't bother with much character development or description. They're pretty formulaic but as thrillers go they're tense page turners and well written in terms of the genre.

SaintofBats · 19/08/2020 15:25

Compared with say Roald Dahl or Dodie Smith this makes them quite hard work for reading aloud. I think when you're racing through reading to yourself it's less noticeable.

Absolutely, this. I noticed it too when reading them to DS.

Aragog · 19/08/2020 15:31

Look, it may not be written in technically great English or whatever other people want to criticise for. But at the end of the day the books encouraged many children, and some adults, to get excited about reading. They are incredibly popular across the world, not just in the UK.

So, your average person can criticise the book all they like but it makes no difference. Whether you like it or not she created a whole wizarding world around 7 books which has been enjoyed by millions of people over the years, and continue to do so, and have made her a whole heap of money.

I guess that, at least when it comes to children's books, it shows that the whole story telling is way more important than the the grammar or sentence structure written down.

Aragog · 19/08/2020 15:33

Compared with say Roald Dahl or Dodie Smith this makes them quite hard work for reading aloud. I think when you're racing through reading to yourself it's less noticeable.

I've read them aloud many times - for DD when younger and when teaching - and never fond them difficult to read aloud. Mind you, Stephen Fry reads them so well we tended to listen to the audiobooks after the first read anyway.

Aragog · 19/08/2020 15:39

I've heard it said that they are written at about the level of a good year 6 writer,

Have you read the work of a good year 6 writer? Or even an exceptional one?

I don't mean the odd sentence or paragraph though. For that kind of statement to stand it would need to be shown that an 11 year old could write a book of that type. I am sure somewhere there may be - but it is no means common. I have yet to come across one in my years teaching.

SweetPetrichor · 19/08/2020 15:40

I think she wrote interesting plots, which - for people of my age - matured with the reader. Going back and reading them objectively, no it's not the best written stuff ever, but it has that little something that gets the reader under it's spell. It's a very 'white boy saviour' type of series. But it's of it's time. If it was written now, it might be a bit more diverse.

I enjoyed reading them as a child. I was ideally aged for them as they came out. I don't support JK and her politics, but I still have fond memories of reading the books.

TheFormerPorpentinaScamander · 19/08/2020 15:44

@The80sweregreat they get a list every summer with what they need. Its never mentioned that it had prices on it though so I guess that could be a shock when you get to the shops.

Harry's parents leave him a small fortune which he uses to buy his books etc. Not sure if they have to pay to attend Hogwarts though. Its not mentioned (that I remember) and I always assumed it was free.

Hermione's parents are muggles. It's definitely mentioned in relation to her being a mudblood. They are also dentists.
I'm not sure what muggle parents would make of getting the letter though. Or how they know how and where to get supplies. I think I'd assume it was a joke and enrol my child in muggle school Grin

They aren't the best written books in literary terms. But neither are Enid Blyton books. But in terms of the world they create, the way they make you feel and the amount of children they got into reading, they are magical!

Witchend · 19/08/2020 15:47

I have to say I agree. I think she has an amazing imagination, none could knock that, but she isn't a great writer as in what she actually writes is often clumsy.
She improves between book 1-2 and book 3 she hits it. Really good, she's on top form. But then the editing falls apart after that. There's plot holes that don't go anywhere and the books are too big. A good writer would have been able to pare that down and produce a tighter book that was better for it. That is at least partially the publisher's fault as they should have helped edited it, and they certainly should have told her.

It's kind of the opposite of Dick King-Smith. He's a good writer and he has great ideas. But often his imagination doesn't stretch far enough. Why would you have the sheep pig accused of worrying sheep? Pigs do not worry sheep (they worry me if they're big!) so it isn't a valid accusation. Have them considering whether he's good bacon, or a dastardly plot to sell "sheep pig sausages". If nothing else I haven't ever read a book about a sheepdog that doesn't include them being accused of sheep worrying at some point, so that makes it rather boring.

If you look at the first book, it's a slow start and some of the sentences are just not quite right, and you get things that feel a bit try too hard-like Dudley's uniform, it's totally OTT.
Character wise, I think there is an aspect of using fairly standard stereotypes. The hard done by main character, the know it all (who often is a girl and they normally start off by disliking) person and side kick who sometimes is jealous of MC, but other than that is fairly bland.

And there's inconsistencies. She describes Harry's home life in a way that would be surprising if the school at any rate hadn't called social services-but the Dursleys are very much about the outward appearance, so they'd have been "oh, my poor darling orphan nephew and I'm so glad I was able to help, in public" and nasty in private.
Equally well it's unlikely Harry would have had enough confidence after that to say "there's no need to call me sir, professor" to Snape in a new school the first time he's met a teacher. He's used to bullies, he hides from them because he's learnt he's constantly the victim. He's not going to stick his neck up when he's got a chance of leaving that behind.

The other thing that surprised me when she was talking about being published was how little she had researched into doing it. She talked about not receiving the manuscript back (which was standard), that she'd sent the whole manuscript off (most places ask for max 3 chapters) and a couple of other things that I knew, having never submitted a book nor been involved in it, were things publishers said as standard.
Then if you see one of the rejection letters sent to her when she tried the adult book under a pseudonym, she clearly had still not looked at information about submitting as one of them helpfully tells her how to submit in a way that publishers want. (like the above).

I think she seems to be a great person, stands up for what she believes in. I think she is as good a writer as many out there.
But a great writer? No.
Was she lucky? Yes. But no more than a lot of celebrities/well known people are. I think to hit that level of popularity does require a lot of luck. The right people see it, right people review it, the right people read the books, a celebrity happens to receive the book for one of their kids and is seen reading it...

However if it hadn't been such an imaginative world, all of the above could have happened and it couldn't have achieved this level of popularity. So it is a mixture of brilliance and luck-like an awful lot of things.

TheFormerPorpentinaScamander · 19/08/2020 15:52

Equally well it's unlikely Harry would have had enough confidence after that to say "there's no need to call me sir, professor" to Snape in a new school the first time he's met a teacher.

Thats not the first time he meets Snape though. That line isn't until book 5? 6? Can't remember which exactly but its a later one.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 19/08/2020 15:55

This sort of thing is said by less successful authors, usually much less successful, or even wannabes who have never been published.

I’m reminded of a writers’ do talk I once attended, where the speaker, a much less successful author, first told us she was a friend of Jeffrey Archer, and then proceeded to slag him off - ‘He can’t write!’ - said in a patronising, ‘poor thing’ tone.

I bet she’d have given her ears for his storytelling ability and even a quarter of his sales, though!

Clymene · 19/08/2020 15:59

It's a fault of all publishing houses once an author reaches a certain level. Many excellent authors later books could have done with a good haircut.

I think it's a bit of a failure on the part of the publisher to be honest - it's part of what the author should expect of their contract.

chestnutshell · 19/08/2020 15:59

@ilikebooksandplants

Oh and that god awful play! Albus Severus is a TERRIBLE name - there’s too many S’s for it to flow properly when it’s said out loud.
Hahaha. Ginny clearly didn't rub it past the Mumsnet baby names board Grin
chestnutshell · 19/08/2020 16:03

@Nottherealslimshady

Yabu. I couldn't read the books, they were poorly written. I loved the films though but I think that's massively down to the film production team rather than the author of the book. I also loved Narnia films and books for someone up thread who said they didnt like those. I think it depends on a person's reading style, there are some books I've bought/downloaded, started reading and though "fuck this it's a nightmare" but the reviews are brilliant.
Isn't there loads of stuff in the films that makes zero sense without the book context though?

Book Harry, book Ginny and many others are far more fun than their onscreen counterparts

Chezacheza · 19/08/2020 16:03

@cariadlet

I disagree with the Jack Reacher novels being badly written. Lee Child knows the audience that he's aiming for and doesn't bother with much character development or description. They're pretty formulaic but as thrillers go they're tense page turners and well written in terms of the genre.
I agree and just finished The midnight line. I like them, they are fast reads.

Every one has got an opinion on everything but her audience loved her books. That’s all that matters. They queued over night to get a book when it was released. She was a multimillionaire before the films came out.

I think she did bloody well for herself. Bravo JKR!

NearlyGranny · 19/08/2020 16:03

English specialist hat on here - I used to use the first HP in class with Y6 because every imaginable sentence type and every narrative device known to literature was brilliantly exemplified. Can you tell I'm a fan?

The later books changed - not better, not worse; just different - to be more descriptive of the action, which I felt reflected the author's awareness of inevitable film adaptation.

They will stand and have already stood the test of time. They are well written by someone who knows her craft.

Chezacheza · 19/08/2020 16:06

I enjoyed reading them as a child. I was ideally aged for them as they came out. I don't support JK and her politics, but I still have fond memories of reading the books

What speaking up for women? I love her for doing that.

DogInATent · 19/08/2020 16:11

The basic plot of the Harry Potter universe is a composite of plots and ideas from at least a dozen books written 20-40 years before Harry Potter. At its most basic it's The Wizard of Earthsea relocated to a 1950s boys boarding school novel (Jennings, etc) with added co-ed. It's a familiar story arc (Pratchett uses it a couple of times at least), but she brought all these strands and ideas together in an original arrangement.

What JKR got really right was timing, which involves a good deal of luck in finding a publisher that recognises it. The generation that read Adrian Mole had a grown up and was looking for something to read to their children, and there was a minor resurgence of interest in things vaguely magical across a range of media (Buffy TVS started on tv around the same time) that had been building for 5+ years before the first HP novel was published.

Icantreachthepretzels · 19/08/2020 16:11

yet fred and George don't wonder why a man called "Peter pettigrew" is in bed with their thirteen year old brother every night?

This often comes up - I always assumed the marauders would show up on their map under their marauder names. We're never actually told what their dots are labelled (only professor Lupin ever sees Sirius and Peter on the map, we're not told what names he reads but he would recognise 'padfoot' and 'wormtail' for who they really are), but if they signed the thing with their nicknames they probably labelled themselves that way too.

Plus - there are hundreds of dots all over the map. The rooms might be labelled but I don't suppose the specific beds are. Considering the sheer size of Hogwarts, the dormitory must be a be pretty small area of the map. Even assuming the twins ever took the time to closely examine all the dots in their brother's dormitory, they can't actually see what bed everyone is in - and they will all be packed in close together.

Before Ron owned Scabbers, Percy did. So he would always have been on the map as long as the twins had it. They might have noticed that 'wormtail' lived in Gryffindor tower and gone looking for him at some point ... but the story isn't about the adventures of the Weasley twins is it?

It's only in the film that scabbers is labelled as Peter Pettigrew, and it is Harry that spots him ages before the night with the hippogriff, so considering the rest of the scene bears no resemblance to the book, there is no reason to assume they got the labelling of the map correct.

you're telling me Dumbledore could get hold of a timeturner so a thirteen year old girl could take a few extra lessons but couldn't do so to go back and warn the potters about their betrayal/stop Harry and Cedric from going into the maze???

No he couldn't - because the way time travel works in the HP universe is that you always did the thing you go back and make yourself do. You can't actually change anything, you just make it happen. Like Harry doesn't go back and change the outcome by saving himself with a patronus, he was always there - he saw himself.
There's the whole section where Harry just wants to run into Hagrid's hut and grab scabbers to stop him escaping and Hermione really plainly lays out why he can't do that. There will be terrible consequences, they absolutely cannot be seen and they run the risk of killing their past/ future selves. That is the same reason why Dumbledore can't go back and change any big stuff.

If Cedric and Harry go into the maze the first time around then no amount of time travel will ever stop that from happening, because that isn't how time travel works in that universe. It really is just a device to give you extra time.

Hermoine's parents are dentists so maybe they just got a letter from Hogwarts as H did?

Snape tells Lily that usually you just get a letter, but as her parents are muggles someone will come and see them.
Dumbledore goes to see Tom Riddle at the muggle orphanage to tell him about Hogwarts.
So we can extrapolate that Harry only gets a letter and not a visit because the Dursleys already know about Hogwarts because Lily already went.

An awful lot of things people say they don't know is actually in there. It's not always laid out as a big chunk of exposition to answer every question but the information is there.

serenada · 19/08/2020 16:12

The worst witch is absolutely identical to HP - I am surprised it is not a copyright issue.

Same as Dan Brown/Da Vinci code stuff and Umberto Eco 'Foucault's Pendulum'. They rely on people not knowing the original.

I was working in children's publishing just before HP came out. Everyone was critical of fantasy type stuff and trying to move away from it. I grew up on it and loved it so couldn't understand the argument.

HP 's success is down to the fact that it took a plot, setting and characters that normally exist in certain 'wordy' books and used a simplified reading style to convey the narrative. In those other books, with a higher reading age, the whole story would have been much shorter (and age appropriate in length).

Ssying that, it got people reading and that in itself is a good thing. I think she created something amazing. I read the first few but lost interest after that. Also written in a way that can easily be imagined as a film (any writer can see that).

I have however recently worked with a Learning assistant who thinks book day is about everyone dressing up as HP characters and waving their wands around. And a school that used a 'Professor Know it all' character in their learning objectives (what would Professor Know it all say....kind of stuff).

serenada · 19/08/2020 16:12

And yes, I do also read Joyce and Dostoyevsky.

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 19/08/2020 16:12

@MadeleineMaxwell -thanks for that, interesting reading-I guess I’m a bit more cynical about unthinking faith than the writer of the article though😂.

I think JK was making a point though about the elves not being freed. Maybe that even when the “good” side win there will always be an underclass, subject to the rule of others.

Or potentially it was JKs take on the same concept as Nietzsche’s Thus spake Zarathustra -“God is dead....” even if [christianity] was dead (and could christianity continue in a world where there is no good/evil divide?) people still cleave to the old morals/duties/rituals. Ie even when house elves are living in the New Jerusalem post the final battle between good and evil courtesy of Johns revelations (Harry being Jesus, Voldemort being Nero/the Antichrist) the masses/elves still carry on following their existing lives/rituals and beliefs. Therefore nothing has actually changed.

I actually love JK, bloody brilliant woman, i wish more people would look deeper into her books, so full of religious, classical, hermetic references. These books certainly work on different levels. Actually thinking about it, maybe that is why sometimes they seem poorly written, maybe they are trying to work on too many levels.

if I had a daughter I would be encouraging her to try and emulate the actions of JK rather than these you tube influencer types. Being a strong, intelligent woman, firm in her beliefs even when they don’t fit with others, actually a role model for is all. Maybe that’s why the TRA activists don’t like her,she is everything a woman should aspire to rather than the stereotype of a woman they wish to portray.