To be at my wits end with council

[orangesnapples]

Sorry this is going to be really long post, but trying not to drop feed. Can any body offer any advice or insight..
in a 2, bed 5th floor council flat with 4 children 21 year old girl, just back from uni and mostly sofa surfing, a 14 year old boy a 7 year old son with complex ASD and sensory processing disorder, along anxiety, PDA and self harm and a 4 year old daughter.
For the last several years my housing officer has told me I’m not entitled to a bigger home and to be great full that I have a roof over my head. My husband and I have made the most of our living space but during lockdown my 7 year old son started to really hurt his 4 year old sister, threatening to hurt her while sleeping then being so up set that his brain says does this stuff began to threaten to jump off the balcony or out the window. Big meltdowns, CAMHS refereed to SS who told me that the flats too small and no one will help me if I don’t help myself ! No one would believe my requests to go on the list was denied. So spoke to housing officer again and refused no for a answer and she said I wouldn’t be entitled any way as my 4 year old isn’t in the system 😩. ( my 14 year old was in hospital a few years with meningitis and my husband took our marriage certificate and daughters certificate while I sat with our son but they only have the marriage certificate!!! ) I emailed the certificate with in a hour of getting of the phone asked for her to confirm it’s on the system....3 weeks of no reply I email my situation, ASD son receiving weekly support from CAMHS (during the lockdown) and social services were checking on us weekly, who have stated that our problem is we need more space. Finally got a blank email as a reply. I replied that a blank email is not helpful and got a reply to say that I emailed the wrong person and they had forwarded it on ! Now I used the same email to housing officer I have used for the last 5 years. I got no reply
I made a housing application online myself and emailed the housing manager asking who and where are my daughters certificates she said she will look into it on the 7/7 and get back to me next week. ( the housing officer said we are currently not over crowded)
I have not heard from her since ! Iv sent 8 emails starting with please help, turning into .. how can you keep ignoring me, Iv made you aware of our situation and if my son falls from climbing/ meltdowns ( Iv had to restrain him on the balcony when he’s been threatening to jump, his MH team are aware and are very supportive, we have come along way in the last few weeks ) and I will hold the council fully responsible!
Still silence... so I made a complaint and told the manager will be in touch. I called my MP and she took a copy of all the mail threads and said she will be back in touch.
There was a fight in the communal garden and some one called me from housing asking me to be a witness and I said I can’t believe you have time for 2 old ladies fighting over garden chairs but have completely ignored my cry’s for help. The lady took my details and said she would look into it herself. This was Monday.
Great. Yesterday I popped out and when I got back my husband said the council were here with the police ! To discuss my emails ! That’s all they said they didn’t even leave a name. I just don’t understand why they would bring a policeman to my home unannounced. My 7 year old son is stressed because he thinks he’s done something wrong, they kept asking him if he was safe !! He’s 7 and doesn’t under stand when he’s happy never mind articulating previous emotions that scare him to a stranger on his door step ! My husband said they need to talk to me and they said they would email me and left.
So I don't even know who came !
I assume they turned up because of the jumping off the balcony but that was 4 weeks ago !!! We are all ready involved with all the agency's that can help.
And why a policeman what's a policeman going to do with a autistic child that was threatening to jump off a balcony a month ago !!
I'm at a lost and guess I need a good rant.
Oh I would like to say, that I'm not trying to be greedy, SS said I was entitled to a 4 bed but honestly I'd be happy with a extra cupboard under the stairs so my son could have some sensory time, and maybe a little bit of outdoor space, I love my little flat but the SS and CAMHS have been very clear. And have seen the emails and now know that it's not me for trying so there is at least that.

Can you ask for a different housing officer op

You needs SS, CAMHS and GP to give supportive statements and get on at them and push for adequate housing or at least get you on the list. SS can be very helpful in situations like these .

One of the issues you have is that your eldest isn't registered there and living rooms count as bedroom space at the moment(it might be just certain councils) . So technically your boys can share one bedroom, the youngest has her own room and the parents in the living room, or whatever other mix. Technically you are not overcrowded especially if there's a massive housing shortage where you are and the housing officer is a "computer says no" type of person.

I'd say your best bet right now is to keep complaining to your MP and asking SS to intervene.

Have you applied for different housing providers?
6 people in a 2 bedroom flat was always going to be difficult.

Should make clear my comment re 5 th child was addressed to
PopsicleHunter.

If you feel you are overcrowded and that the housing team aren't taking this on board, you can contact your local council's environmental health department, who will come and carry out an inspection of your home. This might force your housing provider to act.

I'd also continue with the complaints process and if no luck, look at contacting the housing ombudsman.

Chase your MP again as well as the housing providers treatment of you seems very poor and others who may not be as strong as you may also be struggling when dealing with them but not able to voice this or know how to.

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housingadvice/repairs/healthhandsafetyystandardsforrrentedhomesshhsrs

You are definitely overcrowded in terms of number, of rooms as your middle (counting the under 18s) child obviously needs a room of his own, but you will need medical evidence to support this.

So you need one room for you and your partner, one each for the three younger children (as the 4 year old girl and 14 year old boy cannot share), and you need to decide if your eldest daughter is included on the application or not, i.e. if she lives with you (or would if you had space).

You might also be overcrowded in terms of room size/space: england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/check_if_your_home_is_overcrowded_by_law

So that's a housing need of 4 bedrooms without the oldest child. This could include living rooms, though most councils will only count a second living room as a sleeping space, so that would entitle you to at least a 3 bed parlour house.

You can only be expected to use a room as a bedroom if it is actually private. So an open plan living room/kitchen doesn't count. A double living room separated by a partial wall or glass sliding door counts as one room, not two. A living room you have to go through to get to other areas of the house doesn't count. It has to be properly enclosed from the rest of the house to be a bedroom.

Also, try registering on mutual exchange websites; your landlord should fund one of them so you can register free.

While people on this thread are giving very good advice, I would advise you to contact shelter. In some circumstances they can take on a case for you and liaise with and complain on your behalf - they've helped a few people I know have decisions and inaction overturned. There's a different shelter service depending on your area of the UK. Good luck.

As well as your MP, contact the council cabinet member with responsibility for housing. Let them know that you’ve contacted your MP too.

I have spoken today after calling the complaints department to the manager that has been ignoring me, she sent the police, she said she has 200 emails to answer and can't be accepted to get to them all.
I asked why she thought sending a policeman to question my child several weeks after the matter and AFTER I have supplied all my sons CAMHS team support contact details and told them we are getting support.
It was a pointless call. She said she had been busy working on my transfer, but it was me that did the form, I said how can you be helping me when you haven't even replied to me.
I then called the executive of housing and said that I'm raising the complaint as her over seeing the complaint about her is ridiculous. I am expecting a call from her boss.
I then spoke to my sons CAMHS dr and she's not happy and is writing a letter.
I said I would be happy with a bit more space and she said well I'm going to recommend a 4 bed property. Your son needs his own space, space for OT equipment and outdoor space, certainly off the 5th floor and out of the block as there are too many places for him to hide and doors for him to escape out.

I then received a email from the original housing officer apologising for the delay in getting back to me and she has my Daughters certificate! Delay my first email was sent 20/04 and I gave up and emailed her boss 17 June.

I can't believe how hard it's been just to get on the housing list.
I have tried exchanging, unfortunately being in the top floor ours every one off.

Oh and I have 4 children not 5. It's pretty much my sons needs that is making me ask for a transfer or I would be happy to stay here making the most of it as we have been. I know there is a crisis, I'm not expecting a new home with in the next few months I know it will take a long time, but I just want to be in the list and be in with a chance.

It sounds very difficult. Do you both work full time? When we had small children we both worked full itme (as we do now too) and also took weekend second jobs and that made a huge difference in terms of affording market / private sector rents and then a mortgage in due course.

She had a disabled child @Xenia - do you really think she can leave a 7yo with no impulse control in the hands of a babysitter? Of course not. OP is a full time carer to their son.

@yoikes

Email your MP Cc the housing officer and head of the council in

This. This is such excellent advice. It will definitely get the wheels in motion if your MP’s any good.

Refer yourself to social services, ask for a housing needs report from an occupational therapist. Housing only listen to them.

Forget the MP, you may well find that your County Councillor has more clout - don't be afraid to call him / her and explain everything.

Mine has been brilliant for things that I've needed the council to sort out (not housing, but even so).

Why not try for s private rented house. But you could try complaint to your MP. Or tell your GP the overcrowding is affecting the family's mental health.

My daughter is registered here but hardly stays and says she doesn't want to add to my problems and will sort her self out once she's working etc.

I think you need to register your daughter there which should mean you are overcrowded and therefore be able to go on the list.
You can try to exchange but this can take years especially if you are in a flat.

I have my own small business that means I'm only out for a few hours at weekends and it means the world too me.
My son can't be left with anyone, he has had to leave his lovely mainstream school, who showered him with love but he run rings around them and they just couldn't cope.
Even if I did work full time, I regularly run on 3 hours sleep, the thought of working full time and dealing with the family is just a no go.
He's had SEN trained 1 2 1 during school time and still managed to dig a hole under the school fate to escape and get back to me. This is not a excuse or cope out but me working full time would have a very bad effect on my son. He replied heavily on me.

I have a social worker and his CAMHS team leader is the Sr consultant, whom we have weekly / fortnight sessions with. Both said they will support, push etc but can't do anything until the ball gets rolling.
Although both have said today they will send me letters by tomorrow to forward to the housing.
The dr is left flabbergasted that the policeman came and questioned my son when they had her contact details.

The nature of council housing is that its provided at great discount so there isnt a huge amount of choice/flexibility. Many people live in very crowded conditions, including with children with disabilities.

Your issues are:

1. your daughter is not a child, she is 21. Can she get a part time job and contribute while she is at home? She also may not be counted as a member of the household in terms of need for bedroom space.
2. you are probably not technically overcrowded as the council expects someone to sleep in the living room.

Long term, you are likely to get on better moving somewhere where you can afford to privately rent.

Sunrise
My daughter is registered here I didn't add her to the housing transfer because that would mean a 5 bed !
The doctor is adding her and said that she's going to recommend the family are housed together.
I said I'd prefer not as the weight for a 5 bed is going to be worse and she said
Well that's my recommendation that I'm putting in the letter.

Really hope you can get on the list but sadly depending on where you are it could mean waiting forever and/or a private let that will take LHA. A friend in London waited for years in temp accommodation with kids.

Ok I think there is some confusion.
My daughter is very happy to find work and start her own life, I haven't included her in the transfer application BUT this is her registered home, she is on the tenancy, votes here etc
Had a job and plans lined up for after university which unfortunately has fallen though meaning she had to come home.
There was no room at the inn, well there is the sofa and she sleeps there regularly but it's all a bit chaotic for her, and added pressure for us so went to stay at her nans but visits her 2 friends and pops home to give her Nan space.
Without her there are a 14 DS a 7 DS and a 4 DD
I'm not even that fussed about the extra rooms, we make do and sometimes I think we're a close family for it.
It's being on the 5th floor when my son is having a moment, it's the fact he has so many escape routes out this block

Get on to your MP and your local councillor. They will be able to kick ass (especially the MP, councils tend to shit their collective pants when MPs get involved.

Keep it simple, bullet points with the dates (or approximate dates, where actual dates aren't known) shown and the sequence of events in date order. Copy in whoever is the most senior bod at the council involved in your complaint.

It would also be worth checking if you are "statutory overcrowded". Shelter has a very good guide to working this out england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/check_if_your_home_is_overcrowded_by_law . If you are (although I think it unlikely, as u-10s don't count, iirc) that puts you in a much stronger position. "Statutory overcrowding" may have been what the housing officer was referring too when they said you weren't overcrowded, but the council's bedroom allocation/property size criteria will be different from statutory overcrowding. They need a bollocking for misinforming you, if nothing else.

This is shocking maladministration imo. Even if your older daughter isn't counted as living there, you are still entitled to a 3-bed property (both boys in one bedroom, daughter in the other, or 2 youngest sharing and oldest in his own room). If your 21-year old counts as living there, then you're entitled to 4 bedrooms.

You would be entitled to an extra bedroom if you can persuade the council that your younger boy cannot share a room because of his various issues. You would need good medical and social services evidence and, ideally, something from his school as well. If he has an HCP, that may contain useful supporting evidence.

BUT - even if you got the best possible outcome, that would only put you at the front of the queue for the next 3 (or 4, if they decide you need 4) bedroom property that becomes vacant. There may be homeless families in B&B that come before you in terms of the council's allocations policy. Their policy should be publicly available, if it's not online, email them and request a copy. Work out what your banding should be according to their policy.

Finally, make sure you include somewhere that your housing situation the lack of room is endangering your children and severely impacting on your ability to keep them safe. This is another thing that can galvanise them into action for fear of ending up in deep shit if something dreadful happens and there is a serious case review.

I'm so sorry you're going through this, it must be awful. This sort of situation, and the feeling of hopelessness that goes with it, is why I changed jobs a few years ago, but I learned a few tricks along the way.

Good luck, OP.

Yeah I can't work out if they are intentionally or unintentionally useless but I've had the same thing with birth certs lost etc. I think if it is intentional it's so they could keep us in a tiny place for longer because they don't have bigger places. Even once they do accept that you need a bigger place it can be years bidding. There's no guarantees. It's a long process and they don't care about individual circumstances, because they can't. Everybody's circumstances are shit and housing laws get broken every day (regarding time scales and over crowding). But the moment you dare raise your voice or talk about your genuine fears (balconies, unsafe windows, cot death due to extreme heat, fire safety issues, etc.) your seen as at best hysterical and at worst volatile/violent/abusive. It's appalling and I really do empathise. But I would not expect a quick resolution from the council. However impossible you need to show that you can keep your kids safe (from themselves and each other!). Can you lock the balcony and then lock away or hide away the key? Can you do the same with the windows? Can you install baby cams and keep the younger two in separate rooms? Even if it means bribing with devices, food, sweets or money even. You're not going to be able to be the best parent in bad circumstances but if you cannot do basic safeguarding and the only solutions you can come up with are going to take too long (even if another agency is at fault) then they will become increasingly worried about your DCs and now that SS are involved that could quickly escalate. You need to find a way to de-escalate this situation by whatever means possible as it is getting out of hand

I meant de escalating the situation while continuing to pursue alternative accommodation! I am not saying to just take it lying down, but finding better ways to fight the council (other people on your behalf not frustrated emails!)