To worry most people won’t ever ‘get it’

[OverTheRainbow88]

All the marches, Protests etc and people still don’t seem to understand!

Will they ever?

I'm not a fan of the woke police however I do think Tesco made a mistake with this tee, it's clumsy & in today's world you would have thought they would know better.

@C130

The thing is, it has already been explained how many times on this thread why what tesco did was not good. People have taken the time to explain that women with African hair have a history of negativity around it, due to how it has been denigrated and put down, unlike European hair. It is important that young children with African hair are given positive messages regarding their hair from very young. People with no understanding of the history of this, should listen to people who know what they are talking about. But no, some would rather try to shout people down, call them names, stamp their feet, and carry on being ignorant because... well who knows eh. Your guess is as good as mine!

Yep, the 'professionally stubborn' or 'professionally ignorant'. Whichever fits.

*C130
*
Not sure if that was aimed at me.

I have read the thread, I do understand that there's a history and I'm trying to understand it better.

I'm asking, what's the good alternative here?

1. No book with black mermaids
2. Books about white mermaids which mention their hair, and black mermaids that don't

Or is really the case that White people shouldn't talk about hair at all, ever, because that's how it's coming across.

I also don't understand the people saying things like 'this proves there weren't any black people involved in the creation of this, which is a representation issue' when it clear from this thread that there's diversity of opinion within the black community about whether it's offensive or not.

Withgrace As it has been pointed out, the black mermaid could have not been the mermaid being looked for, because of their orange tail, or coloured headband, etc. But not because of the hair not being right, because a black child is already from young receiving messages that their hair is not seen as desirable. Emma Dabiri has written a book, based on how her hair affected her life growing up called Don,t touch my hair. It is well worth a read if you wish to know more about this.

This isn't addressed to a particular pp here, but to answer a question:

If you're going to reference a black person's physical appearance in books, products, conversation, etc, always make it a positive. Never a negative because of history.

Saying you'll not include them because of getting it wrong is laziness. If in doubt, consult more than 1 black person before making it final. Don't be lazy, do a research/mini focus group or something as you would other things you're going to be releasing to the public.

Of course, mistakes will still happen. When they do, take correction, apologise for mistake (if you care to do so), re-do and move on.

Withgrace I could talk hair all day long with anybody. I am by no means an expert on it though. What I do think is wrong is people with no knowledge at all about it, coming on here all too ready to put people down, call them all manner of things and be generally downright unpleasant, all because they can not see the problem. I do not see the problem with lots of things I read on MN. I do not storm in insulting people left, right and centre. I read the comments, and try to learn more. Because I have a brain. By all means do ask questions though as well as reading other sources, of which there are plenty.

*C130
*
Yes, and has been pointed out multiple times, the white mermaids were also 'wrong' because of their hair.

The books involving the white mermaids are older, and had already been published. So if someone wanted to make one about black mermaids, they would need to either redesign the book to exclude the black mermaids hair (and it seems, any other reference to her appearance, which would've made the book very different to the others) or do it the same as the others with black mermaids.

Or they shouldn't have made the book at all. Those are the only options.

*C130
*
I hope you don't think I've done the things you said. I certainly don't think I've insulted anyone or 'stormed in'.

Im not the most PC person but even a black person who doesn't find it offensive, if consulted, would probably still say "Not offensive but...I wouldn't put it that way though if I were you. Say this instead" or something because they (generally) can tell how it would be received or how it comes across.

There are many who wouldn't or aren't as aware of some issues but that's the diversity of thought or experience. We're not all the same. It's fine but chances are you'd definitely get someone who's more aware of these issues, if you look.

There are so many things I don't find offensive (but others do) that my dd says about different things in life but I still give her different words or different ways of saying them so when she's out, she wouldn't say something "wrong". I know her intentions are completely innocent but not everyone knows or will accept that.

You'd still offend someone somewhere regardless but first do what you can.

*Luv
*
Thanks for your post, I found it helpful.

It does contradict other things I've read though, including a Facebook post from black friend saying how upsetting she found it when people said 'I love your hair' because of the history of balls bodies being fetishised and found fascinating by White people.

I don't think it's fair to say that making the choice not to include a black character is 'lazy'. There's seems to be a lot of issues around racism where there's diversity of opinion and things are experienced diffidently. That's right, because black people are not a 'hive mind'. If you have a focus group of 5 people you might get 5 different opinions. If you go with one of them, you're offending all the others.

Withgrace No I was not directing the storming in, or other comments about you.

Cross posted!

Thanks I think you actually spoke to the points I was trying to make.

My interest is professional. I'm a writer and I've never written a black character, because I'm too scared id get it wrong. I'm trying to work out the best way through that fear.

I know i sounds just like the men saying 'we can't even flirt anymore, women get offended by everything' when women talk about sexual harassment. That's why I'm trying to learn more, so I don't sound like that!

'I love your hair' because of the history of balls bodies being fetishised and found fascinating by White people

For me this is the sort of thing I don't find offensive but some do.

I don't think it's fair to say that making the choice not to include a black character is 'lazy'. There's seems to be a lot of issues around racism where there's diversity of opinion and things are experienced diffidently. That's right, because black people are not a 'hive mind'. If you have a focus group of 5 people you might get 5 different opinions. If you go with one of them, you're offending all the others

One would go with the majority, as other focus groups work (no hive mind in most I believe). A lot of products marketed to women don't apply to me and some other women but as the majority in the focus group or society in general say they would find it useful/good/inoffensive/whatever, companies would go for it. Sometimes, they realise just how wrong they were once the products hit the shelves. Other times, it works out for the majority.

And as I said, if it then happens to be wrong, it's life. Take it on the chin, try a different approach and move on. Women aren't excluded because they all don't like the same things. So yes it is lazy to not bother, if one is going to be dealing with the public. Black people are part of the public.

I'm glad you found the posts useful.

Why look for problems where none exist?
Is it that some people like causing trouble just because it makes them feel to have done something?

Why don't they look for people who have real problems and then offer to help them. Use their energy directly to create benefits. Not anonymous rants.
Tee shirts are not manifestos.

(btw, I don't get what the problem with that picture is.)

@minimike

You didn’t need to explicitly say you haven’t got a problem with the t-shirt, that was clearly evident in your post.

This is a real problem, and the problem stems from attitudes like yours.

@withgrace

I've just read your next post after the one I replied.

Okay, in your case, not wanting to include is out of fear not laziness but I don't think you're afraid to conduct research for your books on other issues/aspects of life, are you? So no need to be for this one.

Any decent person will see someone asking genuine questions to learn as a way to help "educate" the person. If they don't, find another person.

I don't speak for anyone to be honest but feel free to ask me if you want. I may be able to answer or help point you to something.

Also I don't know everything, if I don't know about something, I'll tell you I don't know and you'll find someone else who does.

*Luv
*
Thanks.

Like I said, I don't think it's laziness or 'not bothering', I think it's fear of getting it wrong. Maybe I'm projecting there though.

You sound very reasonable and measured, and aware that no offence is meant and mistakes are made. Not everyone is like that. I saw a post of twitter earlier about the mermaid book was designed to 'make our babies internalise hatred about themselves'.

Thanks for your time, and I don't want to keep labouring the point because you've been very helpful.

Luv

Cross post again!

Thanks, you are right in what's you've said, I'll take it on board and ask more questions!

@withgrace You're very welcome. Glad I could help somehow.

Thanks for being reasonable too. Only a decent person would do that instead of marching in like a bull in a china shop and declaring everything as invalid and pathetic because you say so, as some PP have done.

Withgrace Regarding the twitter post you quote the person who said this is aware that "babies internalise". And that is what is not too be overlooked here. A new magazine aimed at black/ mixed race children called Cocoa magazine has been launched recently. The magazine shows different hairstyles, tips on haircare in a positive way. The children who read it will not be given a negative narrative regarding African hair or skin. Take a look at the mag, it may inspire you regarding a character for your book.

Thanks c130 I'll look at that!

Thank you to the people on this thread tirelessly explaining over and over why the T-shirt is offensive. I don’t know how you do it in the face of such push back on mumsnet, but I’m grateful you do. You will have educated one or two people and that is something.

[quote honeygirlz]@itsgettingweird

Except I'm just pointing out white people are outraged in black peoples behalf but not every black person is offended.

Something doesn't have to offend every single black person for it to be offensive. If that was the barometer, nothing would ever change.[/quote]
So, you say something doesn’t have to offend every single black person for it to be offensive? Therefore, how many people have to be offended for something to be classed as offensive? If one person finds something offensive, is that the only view that matters?

If you are intimating that, you might as well close every clothes shop and toy shop there is, in fact just close the whole retail sector. Can you conceive how many people find certain retail items offensive, both WHITE, BAME and LGBT people. Plus it’s not just what the item actually is, but also what retail setting it is in that causes offence over retail goods.

If a white person wears an ”All Lives Matter” t-shirt they are classed as racist! That white person may not care what someone is, in relation to Colour or Gender, but see the larger picture that everyone is equal and that is the view they want to represent. They may find the ”Black Lives Matter” t-shirt offensive as that excludes them, but that point of view is not allowed! Their view doesn’t count. Why is that fair?

I'm a black woman, i dont take any offence to this and to be honest find it completely ridiculous. People are seeing racism in everything nowadays.