To think shop workers shouldn't be asking people why they aren't wearing a mask?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

My friend is epileptic. She can't wear a mask because it takes very little to trigger a fit, and wearing a mask creates too much of a risk. Over the last 2 days she's been asked in 3 different places (Greggs, Morrison's and the Co-Op) in an abrupt and snotty way "Where is your mask?" By staff. This is with lots of other customers around. She responded "I'm medically exempt" and has been asked why she's exempt in two of those places. She's also been told (online) that she should stay in to protect others and get someone else to do her shopping etc.

AIBU to think this is appalling ableist behaviour to put someone on the spot in front of others? She doesn't owe anyone her medical history. Yes there's sunflower lanyards she can pick up but she's apprehensive about wearing anything around her neck for obvious reasons. Why can't we just trust others that they're doing it in their best interests?

And how much wages are is irrelevant

Oh i dunno. In some cases in the past wages wernt even paid when some retailers were using workfare.

And now we are being expected to support them by wearing masks even when medically exempt when some retailers wernt even fucking bothered whether the workfarers they were using were eating and how they were going to survive. In some cases even getting them sanctioned.

intensiveactivity.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/workfare-returns-and-benefits-sanctions-shoot-up/

How much wages someone gets is irrelevant to whether or not they have the right to ask me why I’m not wearing a mask.

I asked where their mask was and offered them one of the disposable ones my friend keeps behind the till if they'd forgotten it. They volunteered their reasons for exemption. I did not push it I was just wondering what they would say. A seventh person was just in without a mask. I didn't ask her.

You asked “where’s your mask”?

You know you can legally offer a mask should they want one but anything more than that is breaking the law.

It's actually not breaking the law. You've misunderstood the law. From what I read in age UK, gov.uk and the Asthma website I am able to challenge people as to their lack of mask. I am allowed to demand evidence or fine them but I can ask if they are exempt or have forgotten. Only the police can enforce it i.e fine people.

Sorry I NOT allowed to ask for evidence or ask the reason for their exemption nor would I.

No-one has any right to ask someone who is exempt WHY they are exempt.

The government guidelines are clear on this. No-one who is exempt has to say why they are.

I have no problem being asked by a shop assistant if I can wear a mask and saying 'no I'm exempt'. I do have a problem if they ask me why - my private medical information is none of their business.

In Drumple's case she was wearing the sunflower lanyard and mask exempt badge she shared a picture of on here. The shop assistant should have seen that and not asked her to wear a mask, let alone ask her 3 times and expect Drumple to share her medical information with her.

What was she going to do with said medical info? What difference would it have made to the assistant to know whether it was asthma/PTSD/trigeminal neuralgia etc? I suspect it was because she wanted to judge, or declare she didn't agree with an exemption for X reason and turn Drumple away.

what I said was

You can offer a mask but you can’t ask why they are exempt or refuse to serve them.

In law, she had absolutely no right to ask. The legislation says only police or other authorised officers such as transport staff or other official. Not a shop assistant.

This is what the guidance actually says, shops are encouraged to take reasonable steps to promote compliance with the law, this does include asking people who haven't got one. (If not clearly indicating they are exempt) The demanding of evidence is not, however, a reasonable step.

Just like it's the law for shop workers not having to wear masks at work but still dont stop customers asking why we are not wearing kne and again that worker may have a health problem anyway so none of the customers business. It goes both ways

One

I’ve never asked a shop worker nor refused to be served by anyone.

[quote HeIenaDove]And how much wages are is irrelevant

Oh i dunno. In some cases in the past wages wernt even paid when some retailers were using workfare.

And now we are being expected to support them by wearing masks even when medically exempt when some retailers wernt even fucking bothered whether the workfarers they were using were eating and how they were going to survive. In some cases even getting them sanctioned.

intensiveactivity.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/workfare-returns-and-benefits-sanctions-shoot-up/[/quote]
I'm trying to figure out your logic there. In the past some businesses exploited their workforce so you now feel justified in putting that same workforce at risk in some kind of up yours to the business owners????

@Drumple

I’ve never asked a shop worker nor refused to be served by anyone.

Plenty of customers ask me about my disability. At least as a customer you have the right to be rude to the member of staff asking you intrusive questions or to walk out. As a member of staff I don't have that ability when it's customers asking me intrusive questions about my condition - it's all about privilege isn't it?

I am sorry that people have been rude to you. They shouldn’t have been and you should definitely report that to your manager.

I’m not sure how being disabled and having to wear a lanyard and badge and still getting abuse makes me privileged but ok.

@TheGreatWave

In law, she had absolutely no right to ask. The legislation says only police or other authorised officers such as transport staff or other official. Not a shop assistant.

This is what the guidance actually says, shops are encouraged to take reasonable steps to promote compliance with the law, this does include asking people who haven't got one. (If not clearly indicating they are exempt) The demanding of evidence is not, however, a reasonable step.

That's interesting. It actually says that shops can refuse entry if the person doesn't have a valid reason for exemption - well how can the shop know if the exemption is valid unless they check? No wonder shop staff are so confused.

I took it to mean that staff could offer a mask, but nothing more.

There’s a really useful toolkit here www.laworfiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Face-Covering-Exemption-Notice-with-Law-Explained-24-July-2020.pdf

Posted too soon.

From that website

The only people who are entitled to ask about whether or why someone has a reasonable excuse are enforcement officers i.e.
 police officers
 police community support officers
 persons designated by local authorities or by the Secretary of State for the purpose of
enforcement
If you are not such an enforcement officer, you will be likely to commit disability discrimination and harassment and be ordered to pay compensation.

@Drumple

I am sorry that people have been rude to you. They shouldn’t have been and you should definitely report that to your manager.

I’m not sure how being disabled and having to wear a lanyard and badge and still getting abuse makes me privileged but ok.

The privilege comes from being a customer - as a customer you have some power over the shop assistant. See it all the time. Customers can be as rude as they like and the shop assistant has to just take it.

Not quite sure what you think my manager will do when customers ask me where I've been and why, or why I wear splints and on and on. I'd have to have a manager stood permanently by my side ready to field the questions - at least half a dozen a day. When a customer asks I can hardly say "mind your own business" can I?

I’m sorry it’s so difficult for you.

@Drumple

Posted too soon.

From that website

The only people who are entitled to ask about whether or why someone has a reasonable excuse are enforcement officers i.e.
 police officers
 police community support officers
 persons designated by local authorities or by the Secretary of State for the purpose of
enforcement
If you are not such an enforcement officer, you will be likely to commit disability discrimination and harassment and be ordered to pay compensation.

Can you explain the sentence in that screen shot then that sats shops can refuse entry to customers if they don't have a valid exemption?

What does that mean?

I’m sorry that not my job. I am going on what the experts on the law say. You could email them and ask

Plenty of customers ask me about my disability. At least as a customer you have the right to be rude to the member of staff asking you intrusive questions or to walk out. As a member of staff I don't have that ability when it's customers asking me intrusive questions about my condition - it's all about privilege isn't it?

Tell the customer sorry that's personal and walk away. Just like us staff cant ask them They dont have any right to ask ANY personal questions at all. Even tho some customers like to tell us there life story

The privilege comes from being a customer - as a customer you have some power over the shop assistant. See it all the time. Customers can be as rude as they like and the shop assistant has to just take it.

Oh the joys of working with the general public. Some are wonderful, most are just polite and/ or efficient, and the rest, the tiny minority, want to make you tear your hair out.

And a shop probably does have more power to deal with totally dreadful people as they can simply be barred and/or refused service. Some of us are in roles were we have to keep going forward for more.

@DomDoesWotHeWants

Correct, and if that's your situation you could have cleared up the misunderstanding pages back.

No, I shouldn't have had to but you bullied it out of me. Well done. I hope you feel proud of yourself. Now I have to name change as I find this level of helplessness upsetting and embarrassing. And very identifying.

You know what? I did actually feel bad for a while but your username seemed very familiar to me and then I remembered you from Maskwoes' thread about the terrible way he was treated when he had to visit a hospital. Here's you, in response to an OP who was made to explain repeatedly, in public, the sexual abuse that he suffered as a child:

I'm sorry this happened, OP.

But the staff were trying to protect themselves and other patients, you must understand that.

Even with a good reason not to people not wearing masks look like they don't care about other people to many not familiar with the lanyard.

I'm exempt (health) but I wear one to keep others safe. Too many people take the piss and it ends up hurting genune people.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3978398-mask-shamed-disability-complain-some-tmi?msgid=98624814#98624814

Which is horrible and very inconsistent, perhaps even hypocritical. On the one hand you think it's OK for the hospital to have repeatedly demanded that level of intrusive, distressing detail from Maskwoes. On the other hand you now claim that just being asked to clarify why you are exempt - 'I can't put a mask on' - is such a huge, distressing, 'identifying' () invasion of your privacy that you have to namechange. And for the avoidance of doubt, I asked for this clarification in the context of a forum discussion where you repeatedly stated that you are exempt but choose to wear a mask. You absolutely should not be asked for any clarification when entering a shop or public transport.

Having reminded myself of the callous way you responded to Maskwoes, I went searching (for which I do not apologise).

I found a post where you say there are far too many exemptions and if you can't wear a mask you shouldn't use public transport. Another where you say everyone should wear a mask full stop and even if you have a valid reason for not wearing one you shouldn't go anywhere they are required. There's a post where you say that you know for sure that there are people who pretend to have conditions and that you have asthma but wear a mask even though it's uncomfortable, and if it gets too much you go outside and take it off. In another post on the same thread you say that people who can't wear one because of panic attacks should get someone else to do their shopping.

I am genuinely grateful for the reminder that there will be people who can wear a mask but who are exempt because they cannot put one on. But you seem to be very much against anyone using an exemption at all. What about those who do not have anyone to help them put on a mask? According to you they should just not go in shops or on public transport.

So I don't feel bad any more about upsetting you. Some of the stuff you have posted about masks is horrible and will have upset lots of people who are exempt but who don't have the same choice as you to wear a mask anyway.

@GlummyMcGlummerson I am bowing out now and I apologise for the huge, ugly derail.