To take my family and go live in Gibraltar

[wigglysmiggle]

Dh is currently working from home until at least next year.
Dc about to return to private school and this year has been incredibly stressful for us financially, I now don't want to commit to fees for the rest of time after the scare of this year but our local state is rubbish and I'm finding it all extra complicated due to coronavirus, I did contact some state schools to see if they had space but I didn't get a reply.

Dh thinks he's in a good position to negotiate permanent wfh with the odd trip to London which is easy enough from Gibraltar. We would sort that out before we go.

We were about to sign a new rent contract due to our current landlord selling where we live in the U.K. but that's fallen through. I hate the town where we live and feel stuck due to the school and even if we move to a nicer area there's no guarantee we would get a place in a good school.

We had already planned to move to Gibraltar last year but at the final interview for a job there my dh was told they weren't actually going to hire someone after all and so we stayed in U.K. and stopped looking.
Now I'm thinking of just moving out there while we're both wfh, the rental here has fallen through and I am fed up with everything's that's gone on.

Renting in Gibraltar would be cheaper than where we rent now, and both of us will attempt to get a job there once we have an address as I've heard it's easier to get a job with a local address, we both are in careers that are available there but regardless my job is stable and I wfh permanently anyway so we'd have an income. If it doesn't work out I believe we can always return to the U.K. no school fees means we would be much better off financially and more able to save.
Wibu to just go for it and get dc into a school there? We have no family to leave behind and I can't think why we wouldn't other than pure fear of the unknown,

Do I need sense talked into me? Literally thinking of cancelling school fees, getting out there and restarting life before dc too old to do it (they are in primary)

I'm an accountant too and specialise in international tax issues. There is a double tax agreement between UK and Gibraltar and I've just had a read of it. As I said before, if you are working permanently or semi permanently in Gibraltar but you are on a UK company payroll, you will create a taxable presence of that company, known as a "permanent establishment". This means your employer will need to register a branch of your company in Gibraltar for tax purposes and the company will have to deal with various admin like filing accounts and tax returns in Gibraltar. In addition, there is the personal tax residency point whereby if you are working outside the UK for more than 183days you become non-resident for UK tax purposes and will need to think about the consequences for your social security and pension contributions. Lots and lots of big companies get this wrong all the time and its my job to help them fix it. Its a hassle for them, and expensive.

Thanks @pinkcarpet that is very helpful you sounds very up to date in all of this!

Can you fill in the social security side of things do you know? Ie pay it.

Also what about countries where there is no double tax agreement, now looking at Barbados as well. They've arranged a special visa to allow wfh and no income tax due to Barbados as part of the scheme?
Or does that still mean our companies would have to set up in Barbados as well due to us leaving country for 183+ days?
The lower cost of living there would mean we could save a lot and overall come out better off.
Thank you

Barbados has a similar agreement with the UK so would be a similar issue for your employer with them needing to register locally. On the personal side it is possible to continue to make contributions to UK social security as well as make local contributions but you would then be paying twice over. Also consider your pension contributions and how long you plan to be abroad for compared to your desired retirement age. If you plan to retire in the UK you'll need to keep up your pension contributions which is difficult from overseas because of the tax relief. Most employer pension schemes ask you to suspend contributions while you are abroad afaik.

Do you think if Spain demands Gib back they’ll give Ceuta back? Just a thought.

Thanks @pinkcarpet your advice has been very helpful.

@Potionqueen

Ceuta and Melilla plus numerous other famous Spanish islands off the African Atlantic coast well known to British holiday makers will potentially open a never ending can of political worms regarding overseas territories rightful ownership for many former colonial nations around the world not just limited to UK, Spain and Portugal etc.

I regard Ceuta and Melilla along with the Canaries and Azores an extension to the EU. Enclaves and overseas protectorates etc are potential contentious issues. Closer to home you would realise potential union or "loyalty" to Westminster issues not only for the second main component that of Scotland but also elsewhere in the British Isles as in the island of Ireland is possibly potentially difficult to navigate politically as proven in recent history.

Gibraltar though is potentially challenging as it's out on a limb and requires supplies from the rest of the continent. I personally think it will make a good potential Macao of Europe if they go down the gaming route properly and max out the tax status and gambling laws for an alternative revenue stream. Evidently selling cheap booze and tobacco Gib is not exactly shy when it comes to "sin" money! Plus it's already a destination for weddings and long weekend parties anyway so I am sure it would blend in with some of the Airbnb adult party vibe.

Do it! Sounds like WFH is very doable plus we could lock down again over winter, and where would you prefer? Hot sunshine sounds good to me!
Taxes, it can be sorted! Just pay as required.
Life’s short, if you both want to go then go and enjoy

If I could up sticks and take off, I would. It's worth a shot. Do it with full info though, so you don't land on yer arse.

I married in Gibraltar in 2016 and have spent several weeks there over the last few years. We left the UK in 2018 to work overseas and sold our house in London. We used the proceeds plus some savings to buy two adjacent apartments in a new build development that completed last year. Both are rented out with a monthly rental of £2000, so although you have said you can rent in Gib for less than the cost of renting in the UK, the prices seem more comparable to London than the rest of the UK.

We don't have school aged children but our plan on retirement (we are in our 50s) is to move to Gib, live in one apartment and rent out the other. As non-residents, we have no GIb tax allowance so are liable for rent on the profits.

We find the locals very welcoming and that includes those who are long-standing residents who seem to know everyone. While not expecting to need to speak Spanish, when getting the apartments furnished and cleaned we quickly discovered that all of the people who arrived to carry out these tasks were Spanish and most spoke little or no English, so it's now our plan to learn Spanish before we move there.

If you sign up with Chestertons in Ocean Village, the manager there sends out a regular newsletter which gives you a good insight into the current economic, political and Covid situation as well as the property market.

Spain have always considered Gibraltar to be their sovereign land and there have been very tense moments in spite of EU protection.

They shouldn't have signed the Treaty of Utrecht then; as it became part of British territory when they ceded Gib to us.

The Spanish always make noises about Gib when their domestic policy is in the mire, and then shut up when it recovers.

My parents lived there when Dad was posted there in the 80s, and several friends grew up there as their parents were in the Forces too. Mum used come back to the UK regularly as she got cabin fever being stuck on the Rock.

I was at college with several people from Gibraltar and they were friendly, mixed freely and spoke english perfectly. It sounded like a great place and I'm still sorry I never visited.

I think your children would make friends easily at school. If your workplaces are happy with the move, go for it. You will need to be prepared to accept changes and to make an effort to find friends and fit in, especially as you will not have workmates around. To me it sounds amazing and I send you best wishes for the next stage in your life.

Bear in mind if you enjoy travel that it can be quite a claustrophobic place. The queues at the Spanish border can be horrific, and flights only go to North Africa and the UK. Weekend breaks elsewhere will be tricky.

I was at college with several people from Gibraltar and they were friendly, mixed freely and spoke english perfectly

Why wouldn’t they speak perfect English?

As an aside but related to the general thrust and likeminded aim to share and discuss ideas on this thread I am a fan of this (see below linked videos and accompanying description) as although aimed at higher net worth business creators and investors rather than employees it provides an interesting insight into some of the background ideologies and mechanics of a foot loose geographical footprint should your lifestyle and financial firepower allow it! We are evidently well into a Covid expedited digital native evolution and only your intelligence, risk appetite and imagination is preventing you from becoming a so called monied digital capitalist nomad. This is different from bumming around Thailand or Latin America etc on an extended career break! It's move high end and discerning but semi first mover advantage explorational so need back up financial muscle in case it does happen to be too risky a move despite potential returns and tangible advantages etc.

Anyway here is the video and description:

What’s the Cheapest and Safest Country to Live in?

Published on Jul 27, 2020
nomadcapitalist.com/lifestyle...

You might not think that one city could be both cheap and safe to live in. While countries like New Zealand and Switzerland top the safest countries in the world, so do tax-friendly countries like Georgia, which are much cheaper for expats and nomads.

6:02 Qatar
6:14Taiwan
6:27 Georgia
6:30 Armenia
6:31 Slovenia
6:32 Belarus
6:33 Poland
6:34 Slovakia

Andrew Henderson and the Nomad Capitalist team are the world's most sought-after experts on legal offshore tax strategies, investment immigration, and global citizenship. We work exclusively with seven- and eight-figure entrepreneurs and investors who want to "go where they're treated best".