Feminism and transphobia

[CatsArePeopleToo]

Are we supposed to include males in everything now? Facebook/Twitter feels like an alternate reality.

Thank you! I will read those links.

@FightingtheFoo I haven’t done the reading yet but the reason I find the thread transphobic is that it focussed intently on the nuts and bolts of surgery and body parts and no reference has been made to the human experience of being trans. In fact I get the feeling that some posters think it’s not a thing.

I’m keen to read the threads because I’m really curious about the phenomenon of one historically subjugated community pitting itself against another. I might change my mind when I’ve done my reading but I think the suffering of the trans community and their struggle to find their place needn’t threaten to women though I do agree that some of the practicalities are very tricky and haven’t been worked out yet. There’s room for everyone - we just need to work out the practicalities basically.

Also so weird that this is from 2020, i wonder why it popped up on my active threads list?!

Oh this thread didn't need to come back.

It is quite sinister that the go to insult for shutting up women's rights activists attempts to invalidate feminism itself. Why is that?

@AmazingGrapes

Thank you! I will read those links.

@FightingtheFoo I haven’t done the reading yet but the reason I find the thread transphobic is that it focussed intently on the nuts and bolts of surgery and body parts and no reference has been made to the human experience of being trans. In fact I get the feeling that some posters think it’s not a thing.

I’m keen to read the threads because I’m really curious about the phenomenon of one historically subjugated community pitting itself against another. I might change my mind when I’ve done my reading but I think the suffering of the trans community and their struggle to find their place needn’t threaten to women though I do agree that some of the practicalities are very tricky and haven’t been worked out yet. There’s room for everyone - we just need to work out the practicalities basically.

Also so weird that this is from 2020, i wonder why it popped up on my active threads list?!

Male people as a class aren't historically subjugated. Putting a dress on doesn't change that.

I'd suggest reading the "break it down for me" link a pp posted too.

@AmazingGrapes

What do you mean the 'experience of being trans'? What do you think being trans is? What do you think being a woman is, 'outside the nuts and bolts'?

There’s room for everyone - we just need to work out the practicalities basically.

This is one of the issues though, a very loud part of the Trans community and their supporters refuse to acknowledge that not all female-sex spaces, places or even terminology is theirs to take or change. Demanding that transwomen should be in our sports despite it taking opportunity away from biological women, that they should be in our prisons despite being a much higher risk of being violent and/or sexual offenders. Changing the meaning of the word 'lesbian' to mean 'gender attracted' so any lesbian is tarred a transphobe for not considering sleeping with a 'female penis'. Being told 'people' have periods, need smears or even give birth so not to offend transmen who can't accept their biology is still female, even though women need safeguarding due to their biology, the legalities of these words matter greatly in that fact.

@AmazingGrapes

Thank you! I will read those links.

@FightingtheFoo I haven’t done the reading yet but the reason I find the thread transphobic is that it focussed intently on the nuts and bolts of surgery and body parts and no reference has been made to the human experience of being trans. In fact I get the feeling that some posters think it’s not a thing.

I’m keen to read the threads because I’m really curious about the phenomenon of one historically subjugated community pitting itself against another. I might change my mind when I’ve done my reading but I think the suffering of the trans community and their struggle to find their place needn’t threaten to women though I do agree that some of the practicalities are very tricky and haven’t been worked out yet. There’s room for everyone - we just need to work out the practicalities basically.

Also so weird that this is from 2020, i wonder why it popped up on my active threads list?!

Think through as well what it means to be trans. What does it mean to identify as a man or a woman or non-binary? What is it that is being identified with if being a man or woman has nothing to do with bodies?

I think what I find most confusing is that men who say they identify as women seem to want to identify as the very stereotype of women most of us fought against; performative femininity. As a 90s teen, most of my male and female friends pretty much looked the same- long hair, baggy clothes. Not only that, but identifying as a woman doesn't seem to mean adopting behaviour patterns women are socialised into- being more polite, allowing others to interrupt, backing down, being nice.

@FightingtheFoo I think you know you’re being transphobic by refusing to recognise them as trans people.

I cannot fathom why some people find it such an affront to accept other people’s experience of life that is different to their own, and seek to minimise and deny it. Is it because they feel threatened? Do you think trans people are lying about their experience? In an incredibly coordinated fashion? And to what purpose?

I totally get that there is difficulty and debate in creating adequate provision in prisons etc. I don’t think that’s an excuse to bring hatred. Hatred isn’t going to solve anything and it is oppressive.

@BrumBoo thank you for your explanation - very clear and lots to think about.

I totally get that there is difficulty and debate in creating adequate provision in prisons etc. I don’t think that’s an excuse to bring hatred. Hatred isn’t going to solve anything and it is oppressive

I agree, and it would be nice to have this sensible and constructive conversation, but the state of the discourse is that by saying there is difficulty and debate, by the standards set by those who advocate for transgender people, you have been hateful and transphobic because trans women ARE women, no debate etc. Google about Eddie redmayne who said he didn’t agree with JK Rowling but that she shouldn’t have been subjected to abuse - look at the reaction he got. He was “invalidating” and “shitting all over” trans people etc for saying denouncing abuse of a condemned woman.

I think a lot of the resentment from women is a reaction to the fact that we are called “bigots” for suggesting there needs to be a discussion about trans women and women only spaces. It’s oppressive and women are fucking sick of it.

Ignore “saying” before “denouncing”! Sorry!

I cannot fathom why some people find it such an affront to accept other people’s experience of life that is different to their own, and seek to minimise and deny it. Is it because they feel threatened? Do you think trans people are lying about their experience? In an incredibly coordinated fashion? And to what purpose?

@AmazingGrapes, I dont believe in any god. I recognise other people do believe in God and its very real to them. On an individual bases I have no issue with this, but as a rule I find religion to be extremely harmful to society, especially as its purely a belief and not anything that can or will be proven beyond a feeling people have or a thought in their mind.

If you replace religion with gender, that's exactly how I (and others) feel. We recognise that a minority struggle with gender identification, but gender is only a sociological belief. No one can define what gender is or prove its real. You cannot change the law or recognition of sex based on unproveable beliefs.

Not sharing a belief is not hatred. I don't 'hate' religious people for believing in a god, I dont hate people for believing in gender. Until you can show either is real though, not just a personal belief, I dont have to agree its real because to me, gender is absolutely nothing but stereotypes and woowoo masquerading as liberal science and medicine.

[quote AmazingGrapes]@FightingtheFoo I think you know you’re being transphobic by refusing to recognise them as trans people.

I cannot fathom why some people find it such an affront to accept other people’s experience of life that is different to their own, and seek to minimise and deny it. Is it because they feel threatened? Do you think trans people are lying about their experience? In an incredibly coordinated fashion? And to what purpose?

I totally get that there is difficulty and debate in creating adequate provision in prisons etc. I don’t think that’s an excuse to bring hatred. Hatred isn’t going to solve anything and it is oppressive.[/quote]
I think most people here are happy to accept that people are trans, just that being trans doesn’t change your biological sex.

@jellyfrizz aaah ok thank you, that definitely clarifies a lot (though I think some of the angrier, less measured posts on this threads come across as a bit more minimising than that)

Also @BrumBoo you are very good at explaining in a non-judgmental way. I relate to what you’re saying about concepts of gender and how charicaturesque they can be (eg a lot of drag) but I also know a trans woman who is not super girly and feminine so I don’t think it’s entirely about adopting a reductionist view of “being a woman” (wearing heels, dressing in pink etc) and believe that for many trans people it is something more nuanced than that.

Thanks all, super interesting. Very thorny issue.

[quote AmazingGrapes]@FightingtheFoo I think you know you’re being transphobic by refusing to recognise them as trans people.

I cannot fathom why some people find it such an affront to accept other people’s experience of life that is different to their own, and seek to minimise and deny it. Is it because they feel threatened? Do you think trans people are lying about their experience? In an incredibly coordinated fashion? And to what purpose?

I totally get that there is difficulty and debate in creating adequate provision in prisons etc. I don’t think that’s an excuse to bring hatred. Hatred isn’t going to solve anything and it is oppressive.[/quote]
I don't hate anyone.

How do you know I'm not trans? Maybe you're being incredibly transphobic by denying my experience. Perhaps you should dwell on that for a bit.