To prepare DC for the fact that schools may not open?

[collageofphotos]

It's now looking like full school re-opening is in doubt, unfortunately - I'm so torn about whether to be open with my DC (10 and 8) about this fact or just keep talking as though it's definitely all back to normal in September.

I'm leaning towards the latter, but wondered what others are planning to do? For context, one of my DC is desperate to get back to school, the other is absolutely dreading it, which makes things complicated...

It feels like it will be a huge shock to suddenly have to announce on eg Sept 1st (as last-minute announcements seem to be this government's specialty ) that it won't be happening after all, but on the other hand I don't want them to be worried for a whole month before we know what's actually happening...

I'm just going on the assumption there's going to be a lot of disruption regardless of wether they open or not.

My teen will be disappointed if they don't open but she understands and accepts that it's a possibility. Same with with mask wearing in class, she's hoping she doesn't have to but knows that could change too.

People are gonna struggle no matter what happens. Pubs closing mean bar staff lose jobs again and small bar owners in my community are worried about going bust. It's not as easy as saying someone having a pint versus my child's future. It's people's livelihoods and everything they've built up versus schools opening. People are going to suffer no matter what.

Masks for secondary kids. Yep. Teachers, too if they want them.

Close all public meeting spaces. Ban religious gatherings. Your god will love you wherever you are. Just do the basic stuff. Work, shop, school, survive.

What’s wrong with that?

I’m sure somebody will be along in a minute to suggest I want to slaughter them on a sacrificial altar.

some interesting research related to children and transmission from pupils to teachers (or rather lack of it) said:

In an intriguing study from France, a 9-year-old boy with respiratory symptoms associated with picornavirus, influenza A, and SARS-CoV-2 coinfection was found to have exposed over 80 classmates at 3 schools; no secondary contacts became infected, despite numerous influenza infections within the schools, suggesting an environment conducive to respiratory virus transmission.9 In New South Wales, Australia, 9 students and 9 staff infected with SARS-CoV-2 across 15 schools had close contact with a total of 735 students and 128 staff.10 Only 2 secondary infections were identified, none in adult staff; 1 student in primary school was potentially infected by a staff member, and 1 student in high school was potentially infected via exposure to 2 infected schoolmates.

I did post this on another thread, but in case you haven't seen it offers some good news.....

from very recent research.... 'COVID-19 Transmission and Children: The Child Is Not to Blame'

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/146/2/e2020004879.long

[quote MoreListeningLessChatting]some interesting research related to children and transmission from pupils to teachers (or rather lack of it) said:

In an intriguing study from France, a 9-year-old boy with respiratory symptoms associated with picornavirus, influenza A, and SARS-CoV-2 coinfection was found to have exposed over 80 classmates at 3 schools; no secondary contacts became infected, despite numerous influenza infections within the schools, suggesting an environment conducive to respiratory virus transmission.9 In New South Wales, Australia, 9 students and 9 staff infected with SARS-CoV-2 across 15 schools had close contact with a total of 735 students and 128 staff.10 Only 2 secondary infections were identified, none in adult staff; 1 student in primary school was potentially infected by a staff member, and 1 student in high school was potentially infected via exposure to 2 infected schoolmates.

I did post this on another thread, but in case you haven't seen it offers some good news.....

from very recent research.... 'COVID-19 Transmission and Children: The Child Is Not to Blame'

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/146/2/e2020004879.long[/quote]
And in the same article, it discusses why children in these cases may not have been spreading the virus around much and one of the two possibilities is that "because school closures occurred in most locations along with or before widespread physical distancing orders, most close contacts became limited to households, reducing opportunities for children to become infected in the community and present as index cases."

So actually, they don't have firm evidence that children don't contact and transmit the virus whilst schools are open fully. So you can't use this as proof that children don't spread the virus.

[quote Parker231]@lyralalala - I’m assuming you don’t work full time and aren’t expected back in your workplace in September?[/quote]
First day schools go back should be my first day in a new job (also in a school)

I'm mentally planning for the worst case scenario - can't work/have to give up job, kids at home for another period - so that whatever comes at me is better than that because I've seen too many people broken by the "stay positive and it'll be fine" mantra.

It's a healthier prospect, for me, than the folks with their heads in the sand saying "I need school to be open so I'm thinking about nothing else"

Yes think I agree with worst case scenario preparedness

Also I do consider the health of teachers to be extremely important!

This article from the US seems to illustrate the dangers of reopening while infection rates are high

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/us/schools-reopening-indiana-coronavirus.html

I work full time (as a teacher), as does my DH (he isn't a teacher). We have to get out of this mindset that school facilitates this model of two full time working parents. It really doesn't.

Much as it grieves me to lose the money, I'm preparing myself for one of us to cut our hours or leave our job if schools simply can't stay open - it will probably be DH as I'm the higher earner but could be me if the risk accelerates with no regard for my health - I'm more use to my family well so if that's the sacrifice we have to make, so be it.

That way one of us will be available to oversee home education and the other can work - preferably me, continuing to teach my own classes but as I say, my priority is staying well for my family. Don't forget, Mumsnet provided a platform for posters to vilify teachers and schools - teachers will remember that when it comes to making the right decision for themselves.

School is not childcare for working parents. They will stay open as long as is safe but once it becomes demonstrably unsafe, parents have to accept that the onus will be on them to facilitate blended learning.

@KatherineOfGaunt

Did you read -
In New South Wales, Australia, 9 students and 9 staff infected with SARS-CoV-2 across 15 schools had close contact with a total of 735 students and 128 staff.10 Only 2 secondary infections were identified, none in adult staff; 1 student in primary school was potentially infected by a staff member, and 1 student in high school was potentially infected via exposure to 2 infected schoolmates.

That is A LOT OF CLOSE CONTACT WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE BOTH ADULT AND CHILDREN and yet see the very small secondary infection rate.....

The bit you are quoting was not relative to the same study .... the school in the study above was open......

The overall findings taking in the open schools and the ones where schools were limited found that

"Almost 6 months into the pandemic, accumulating evidence and collective experience argue that children, particularly school-aged children, are far less important drivers of SARS-CoV-2 transmission than adults. Therefore, serious consideration should be paid toward strategies that allow schools to remain open, even during periods of COVID-19 spread. In doing so, we could minimize the potentially profound adverse social, developmental, and health costs that our children will continue to suffer until an effective treatment or vaccine can be developed and distributed or, failing that, until we reach herd immunity.16,17"

I probably should have explained that the study refers to a lot of data...

in some schools were open and children not transmitting...

in other studies schools were closed.... but similar data found ...

they have to explain each particular study separately and then come to a summary conclusion which is THE CHILD IS NOT TO BLAME basically showing how children are not the super spreaders that was originally feared.... thankfully

@collageofphotos

That article doesn't actually explain the dangers of reopening though does it.... on the first day a child came in with it ..... the school shut.....the article states that "It is unclear whether the student infected anyone else."

So again how does that explain the danger of opening a school?

@SaltyAndFresh - I don’t know of anyone who is preparing or considering to give up their career and income to facilitate home learning. Government have said that schools will be reopening for the Autumn term and fines will be imposed for non attendance. Schools in Scotland are first and term starts in a couple of weeks time.

@SaltyAndFresh

I agree with you in that schools should close if unsafe. However, it doesn't seem that evidence shows that it is unsafe. It isn't unreasonable to suggest then that schools reopen in September rather than continue the hit and miss home education approach.

Children need interaction with their peers. Most children either didn't receive or cope with home education and need to be educated in school for many reasons. The best people to teach children are teachers who are trained and experts at the job, not parents (many try, some don't, many work full time in or out of the home)

Gradually, more and more is known about Covid - transmission, treatments, risk rates etc and the date emerging suggests that more harm is done if schools stay shut than open

What evidence doesn’t show it’s unsafe? I think the evidence has changed...

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

What do you mean? What evidence doesn’t show it’s unsafe? this statement doesn't make sense.

Are you looking for evidence that it is safe?
Or are you looking for evidence that is dangerous/not safe?

Those stating that 'schools are safe' are probably basing their information on schools in other countries reopening, especially primary schools. However, many countries have implemented wearing of face masks in school (by teachers and pupils), class sizes have been reduced, desks 2m apart, and lots of outdoor teaching. Most of the data is from Denmark, and some parts of France.

England is not implementing the wearing of masks, in primary or secondary schools, by anyone - staff or pupils. There will still be 20-30 or more pupils per class, and the entire school population is going back pretty much at the same time (no part time education permitted). The guidelines from the government make us incomparable to previous experiences from other countries.

DS(7) is back to school in 12 days time. The Scottish kids are seemingly being used as guinea pigs

I don’t know of anyone who is preparing or considering to give up their career and income to facilitate home learning.

I'm not surprised but it will not be the daily of schools and teachers if they can't carry full time working families.

Nobody has actually proved it's safe yet either. Time will tell and all we can do is give it a go.

The fault, not the daily 🙄

No it isn’t, wearing masks isn’t compulsory in Denmark? Where’s the evidence there is widespread mask-wearing in schools?
I’m happy to be corrected but I want the data

I'm not arguing that schools shouldn't open by the way, only that they can't stay open purely to appease working parents if it's unsafe to do so.

ah I see....However, it doesn't seem that evidence shows that it is unsafe.

The evidence in the published articles that states that children are not the super spreaders once thought. The evidence that children don't tend to spread to adults (there are quite a few studies now showing adults transmit to children and not the other way ..... so teachers less likely to get from students than the other way around.... a number of studies including some with a significant number of children over 700 and adults in CLOSE CONTACT and yet no teacher caught from child...

More and more data is emerging which is positive.

I think more and more people are seeing the damage to children of not returning to school and weighing up the risks that schools should reopen without social distancing/masks/ppe hence that is the current plan in September

funinthesun19

What types of things do you have in mind? If you mean pubs and restaurants I’m all for it. I very rarely go out anyway.
Are there any other things you had in mind?

Masks in secondary school.
Actual social distancing
Blended or part time schooling.
and as frog posted

Close all public meeting spaces. Ban religious gatherings. Your god will love you wherever you are. Just do the basic stuff. Work, shop, school, survive.

How far are you willing to go to get your child an education?

Shall we talk about the studies from South Korea and the evidence from Israel or does that not suit the narrative more?

The NSW study is regarded by everybody as being too small, already dated and the conclusions it drew are debated by its own authors.

MoreListeningLessChatting

The "evidence" is still inconclusive either way to say anything else is irresponsible.

Oly the outbreaks in Israel were partly attributed to the the students being told they could remove their mask because it was hot.