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Original poster

PC Harper killers sentenced

467 replies

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/07/2020 14:23

16 year and 13 year sentences.

I doubt they would have got much more if the murder charge had been successful.

I am glad to see the judge wasn’t convinced by their arguments.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46544144

OP posts:
SeasonFinale · 31/07/2020 18:47

There does not despite what a previous poster says need to be premeditation for murder. Indeed an intent to cause GBH can be enough to bring a murder charge should death be the result of that GBH. There was a point when they were aware that Harper was being dragged and at that point the intent to cause GBH arose. The jury were intimidated and one was removed from the jury for becoming friendly with the accused family and supporters!

The CPS clearly dropped the ball here but fortunately the Judge has at least done what he can to redress the issue.

Original poster
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/07/2020 18:52

The issue is that they claim not to be aware that he was being dragged. It is hard to prove what they did or didn’t know.

OP posts:
FarTooSkinny · 31/07/2020 18:54

I must say I am glad I live in a country where if I am ever accused of a crime I will be tried in a court of law that is open to the public and not by a baying mob on the internet

kierenthecommunity · 31/07/2020 19:02

The issue is that they claim not to be aware that he was being dragged. It is hard to prove what they did or didn’t know

I think the only way anyone could have been convicted of murder is if one of the accused had grassed the others up. So maybe said that the driver and other guy knew and were laughing about it, and he was begging them to stop but they refused.

However being career criminals they’re never going to do this

mbosnz · 31/07/2020 19:18

The claim that they did not know that he was being dragged, is what makes it very had to meet the threshold of beyond all reasonable doubt.

That's a bloody hard threshold to meet, and for good reason. Sadly.

BlatheringOn · 31/07/2020 19:35

Absolutely horrific case but sadly it won't be the last. I think it is more helpful to focus not on good/bad Travellers but to recognise that these three young men are from criminal families who are loyal only to each other and feel nothing for any other living thing. I hope the police who searched their site were able to check if they had any slaves because along with dog and horse abuse some members of the community kidnap vulnerable homeless men (see Connors family).

LizzieBennett70 · 31/07/2020 19:43

It brought tears to my eyes reading his wife's and mother's statements. Their loss is unimaginable.

But then you also think of 3 young lads born into a socially isolated community where consanguineous unions are common. Never educated, unable to write or read their own names, and with learning difficulties. Taught from young ages that criminal behaviour was OK, and with little prospect of any kind of future. They will come out of prison as heroes for their actions, and no lessons will be learned because their future children will follow the exact same pattern.

I'm not sure what part of the whole horrific story saddens me the most.

MrsAvocet · 31/07/2020 19:45

This is such a horrific crime that I think it is only human nature to want the perpetrators to be punished as severely as possible. I can't imagine how anyone could live with themselves knowing what they had done, and I am sure most other people can't understand it either. The lack of remorse makes it all the worse.
But the law cannot be changed for individual cases can it? And the burden of proof for criminal cases is very high. The accused is, after all innocent until proven guilty, and the crime must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. I am sure it was a very difficult job for the jury. I imagine the evidence was harrowing and given that there was no real doubt that the actions of these criminals did directly lead to PC Harper's death, the majority of the jury probably wanted to see them punished severely too. But they have to act within the constraints of the law, and unless they were absolutely certain about the intent then surely they had no alternative other than to return a not guilty verdict regarding murder?
Obviously far less serious, but I have been the victim of a crime and had the CPS turn down the charge that the police wanted to bring, in favour of a lesser charge. It wasn't that the CPS didn't believe me - they did, but they felt that the evidence to support the more serious charge wasn't there and that he would probably have been found not guilty as a result. Had been a civil case and the test had only been on the balance of probability it would have been different, but to prove it beyond all reasonable doubt was highly unlikely. They were confident of a conviction for the lesser charge so opted for that rather than risk no conviction. At the time I was very upset, as my assailant got a very light sentence, but with time I have come to see that it would have been even worse had he walked away with no punishment at all.
And it does have to be that way, even though in cases like this it seems wrong. We live in a country with a justice system based on fair principles even though it is not infallible. We can't have trial by media, or the law being down to individual judges and juries. One day any one of us could be accused of something we haven't done, and I am sure we would want the law to be upheld.

MrMeSeeks · 31/07/2020 19:45

They deserve to stay behind bars for the rest of their waste of lives.
Scum bags.

RiverMeadow · 31/07/2020 19:47

@TheIckabog It also highlights the absolute state of Policing in the UK, that PC Harper was already 4 hours late to finish his shift before he went to this incident because they were so short staffed and the jobs kept coming in. I think there is some blame here to be laid firmly at the feet of the Government for all the cuts that have been made over recent years to policing, in particular recruitment

Exactly this! What an absolute shambles.

RiverMeadow · 31/07/2020 19:51

@FarTooSkinny I must say I am glad I live in a country where if I am ever accused of a crime I will be tried in a court of law that is open to the public and not by a baying mob on the internet

I have no idea what you're getting at here. 'If I'm ever accused of a crime' these guys aren't accused, they have done the crime. They have murdered a man!! I think people speaking about it over the internet is the least of anyone's worries. What a ridiculous thing to say!

Original poster
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/07/2020 19:57

I agree with PP that this is an emotive and horrific case but justice has to operate the same way in all cases. The prosecution could not reach the threshold for murder and we can’t adjust the the criteria because we fell it ought to be murder.

OP posts:
Original poster
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/07/2020 19:58

felt

OP posts:
OldCow1 · 31/07/2020 20:11

Hopefully they'll piss some prisoner off and be deleted.

Penners99 · 31/07/2020 20:14

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LadyEloise · 31/07/2020 20:15

I just don't think sentences fit the crimes nowadays. Far too lenient punishments for appalling things done to fellow humans and animals.

gypsywater · 31/07/2020 20:25

They tortured him to death. One of the worst crimes I've read about. They should have been found guilty of murder, no question.

dottiedodah · 31/07/2020 20:26

The fairyCaravan I agree! The whole incident is just awful .Poor Lizzie Harper .Their beautiful wedding pictures showing their love and happiness is just heartbreaking .

Chitlin · 31/07/2020 20:31

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Warsawa31 · 31/07/2020 20:35

They would have got Hard labour for 50 years if I had my way. The parasitic little bastards

gypsywater · 31/07/2020 20:37

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Shmithecat2 · 31/07/2020 20:43

@My0My all the things you're quoting are about one individual, Jed Foster. The other 3 - Long, Cole and Bowers were indeed charged with murder but found not guilty. I suggest it is you who needs to read up a little more.

TornadoOfSouls · 31/07/2020 20:45

Chazsbrilliantattutide thank you for your calm re-statement of facts about the trial and sentencing.

I agree with this
All my instincts are that the judge gave them the max he thought he could give without risking being overturned on appeal.

We may feel that the defendants should have got longer sentences but verdicts are for juries and sentencing for judges, not members of the public who do not know the law or all the facts.

This was an absolutely horrific crime and an appalling tragedy. But calling for very long sentences for young criminals on the basis of their youth is problematic, and those saying that sentences are a joke nowadays etc ought to read a bit more about sentences in the past. Nowadays we quite regularly see 30+ years - even 20-odd years ago when I worked in the criminal justice system this was very unusual. And life sentences are mandatory for murder. Whole life sentences are rare for good reasons.

I do agree with those criticising govt funding though - while ultimately those convicted are wholly responsible for the crime, underfunding in policing, social work, probation and the prison system ought to be addressed as a matter of urgency. Imposing long sentences after the fact is cold comfort to everyone.

RunningFromInsanity · 31/07/2020 20:49

they are all poorly educated and the judge described them as unintelligent. you don’t need any education to know that dragging someone behind a car at 60mph for a mile will kill them.

Ostagazuzulum · 31/07/2020 20:52

@TheIckabog
I'm same, police officer and husband is police officer. It's horrific to think of what happened and without a doubt it should've been murder as you've described.