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What is that Tudor thing that falls out of women's knickers?

89 replies

FinallyRelief · 21/07/2020 19:31

Ok a while back there was this thread about what bleurgh things people have learned on Mumsnet and I've lost the name of it - but people/ladies of Tudor times - I think? They didn't wash so like would deposit things - mousekins? Moshekins?

It's disturbed me then and now I can't remember the name!!

OP posts:
Foxinthechickencoop · 21/07/2020 21:54

@oakleaffy I knew a cat called Merkin. From our student days. I wonder if it’s the same cat or whether it’s a common cat name 😁

ArriettyJones · 21/07/2020 21:55

I feel another round of the ever-popular vagina/vulva debate coming on. Grin

CrumbsThatsQuick · 21/07/2020 21:59

@ShebaShimmyShake

Uterus shaped?! How does it get past the cervix?

I guess it opens up as it would for labour. As I understand it, it's basically when the entire uterus lining comes away at once and retains the shape. I'm not a doctor though, happy to be corrected.

As I said, not the prettiest sight in the world but effectively just a shaped mass of blood.

Like a decidual cast (also something I learnt on Mumsnet)
oakleaffy · 21/07/2020 22:27

So Merkin is a good name for a pussy...I stand corrected! 😂

JasperRising · 21/07/2020 22:37

Babys had regular baths as small baths were easy to prepare. Those working in dirty trades regular bathed in rivers (some drowning as a result). Cambridge students were banned from going in the river for swimming or washing. Medicinal baths of herbs in water were believed to open pores and let out bad vapours. Dry/moist 'baths' that made you sweat were a thing too - by 1600 artificial baths could be delivered to your house (water, milk, oil or liquor could feature in these...).

All the above information is from The Time Travellers Guide to Elizabethan England by Ian Mortimer. A very good read for these type of questions!

IwishIhadaMargarita · 21/07/2020 23:20

@ArriettyJones I pass very large clots every month, they get through the cervix but it’s painful as I get contractions as the clots pass. I nearly pass out sometimes from the pain so I imagine a decidedly cast will be the same.

Ethelfleda · 21/07/2020 23:25

Wait, what?

IgiveupallthenamesIwantedareg0 · 21/07/2020 23:27

@FinallyRelief

Ok a while back there was this thread about what bleurgh things people have learned on Mumsnet and I've lost the name of it - but people/ladies of Tudor times - I think? They didn't wash so like would deposit things - mousekins? Moshekins?

It's disturbed me then and now I can't remember the name!!

OP: Your question is interesting but I really don't want to know the answer!
FlopsyDoodle · 21/07/2020 23:31

I’m sure I remember a thread about this from years ago that claimed that the nursery rhyme that goes ‘pussy cat, pussy cat where have you been?’ was supposed to be about Queen Anne having a sootikin fall out from her dress during her coronation. I may have completely imagined that though!

Notredamn · 21/07/2020 23:48

I'm so squeamish I'm nearly doubled up reading this. The decidual cast google search has damn near finished me.

ladycarlotta · 22/07/2020 00:19

@SarahAndQuack

The Tudors definitely washed with soap and water.

FWIW chastity belts (I've lost track who mentioned that) are also a myth.

People's clothes might have smelt (because washing things like velvet is quite tricky), but their bodies were probably fairly ok.

People's clothes might have smelt (because washing things like velvet is quite tricky), but their bodies were probably fairly ok

Their clothes needn't have smelt, necessarily. The reason they had such an array of linen undergarments was that those could be changed regularly and washed thoroughly, so the skin never touched the silk, velvet or wool outers. Those would be spot cleaned or brushed. Considering that fine clothes were frequently passed on down generations, they must have been kept very carefully indeed - clothing in museum collections show adjustments to different bodies and fashions, and neat mends, but the fabric itself isn't ingrained with filth or anything. Cloth was hugely expensive so nobody was going to trash it that way. Even very high-class medieval garments show scraps being pieced together so that nothing would be wasted. These clothes were precious and their owners knew they weren't easily replaceable.

From a modern perspective we think of washing as full immersion, and so anybody who didn't regularly get into a bathtub therefore 'didn't wash'. They did wash, regularly, with soap and water, but it would have been impractical if not impossible to get into a hot bath every day before plumbing and heating. The whole process of getting clean took a lot more planning and organisation than it does for us today, and it's no surprise that people felt cleanliness was next to godliness: it indicated rigorous domestic organisation and care. Of course there was an underclass of people who probably did live in squalor but nobody wants to live that way if they can at all avoid it, and bad-smelling, dirty people were commented on because they were NOT the norm.

I think it's probable that we 21st century people would notice the smell of a 16th century person, but they would notice our smell too, which is probably very chemical and masking and overwhelming. They might not find that pleasant or desirable. When you hold people from the past up to our own cultural ideas of bodily cleanliness, where everything gets bunged in the washing machine and we jump in the shower, then yes they are going to fall short. But they weren't dirty. They just had totally different materials and resources available to them.

ArriettyJones · 22/07/2020 00:29

[quote IwishIhadaMargarita]@ArriettyJones I pass very large clots every month, they get through the cervix but it’s painful as I get contractions as the clots pass. I nearly pass out sometimes from the pain so I imagine a decidedly cast will be the same.[/quote]
You poor thing. Isn’t there anything they can do for you? At least this decidual thingy sounds like a one off kind of thing (I am not going to make the mistake of googling), having to go through it every month sounds unbearable.

ArriettyJones · 22/07/2020 00:31

@FlopsyDoodle

I’m sure I remember a thread about this from years ago that claimed that the nursery rhyme that goes ‘pussy cat, pussy cat where have you been?’ was supposed to be about Queen Anne having a sootikin fall out from her dress during her coronation. I may have completely imagined that though!
Poor Anne lost an awful lot of babies to miscarriage, stillbirth and infant death. I have a horrible feeling it might have been a terribly crass reference to that.
SarahAndQuack · 22/07/2020 00:33

@ladycarlotta - well, we know clothes smelt, because people took great care to make them less smelly or to disguise the smell.

A lot of what people (especially aristocratic people) wore wasn't suited to washing. Burel, or coarse weaves such as ordinary people wear, would probably be good for many dips in the river. But furs or ornate fabrics wouldn't, and you'd really need to sponge off stains and leave them to air. They really would smell! You can tell this from descriptions of how people patched clothes, or treated them.

I think modern perspectives help us to understand here. Even well into the last century - even into the 1970s - people accepted that second-hand clothes might smell. I have read many accounts of people describing how to use vinegar or bicarb or whatever, to make clothes wearable. However, it's also clear that people sweated into their clothes and discarded them when they became less than fresh (because if you're very posh, why do you need to take time making your clothes smell nice again?).

If you look at Tudor clothing economics, you can see how this works. Yes, people absolutely do patch clothes, but rarely people who are very rich. They just donate them. And, because of sumptuary laws, it's clear they don't expect those donated clothes to be worn. They are intended to be used for the fabric value (or, as a niche possibility, to be sold to actors). I don't think patching had the same social connotations as it does today.

SarahAndQuack · 22/07/2020 00:35

(And btw, no, cloth was not 'hugely expensive'. Cloth was so cheap that cloth rags were a plentiful raw material for paper. What was expensive was the fabric that aristocrats used.)

TimeWastingButFun · 22/07/2020 00:42

Henry VIII

AJTommo · 22/07/2020 00:50

I thought they were called 'pew mice' because they'd drop out when women got up & down to pray?? I'm going to Google it now ....

AJTommo · 22/07/2020 00:51

No, must have made it up. Some cute mice pics though Wink

MamaLion1319 · 22/07/2020 01:04

Such an interesting thread!

As for "sootikins", the jokes on Tudor men who were quite happy to put their ding a lings there judging by the amount of children often had Grin

Googled disidual cast, I'm sure they're not too uncommon. Poor Anne with her losses and that rhyme!

Soudley Castle has some interesting Tudor history if anyone is in the south west of England. I took a young person from work, which we were both dreading. It actually was really interesting Smile

ladycarlotta · 22/07/2020 13:17

@SarahAndQuack

(And btw, no, cloth was not 'hugely expensive'. Cloth was so cheap that cloth rags were a plentiful raw material for paper. What was expensive was the fabric that aristocrats used.)
But it was expensive. It's hard to scale these values to modern times, but this article is quite helpful in indicating the expense of a brand new shirt to a lower class person - something between $240 and $800 today.

The very reason there were cloth rags is that clothing was valued too much to discard, and passed on and on until it was falling apart, at which time there was STILL a use for it, as you say, in paper manufacture. Nowadays we have far less of a concept of the time, labour and expertise involved in making ANYTHING in pre-industrial eras: waste wasn't really an option. You're talking about very high-status people discarding their clothes after wearing, but they were a tiny minority, and as you say yourself, all those clothes would be passed on and worn by somebody else. It was a perk servants expected.

Dress history is part of my job and my academic background, and I have seen very ingenious piecing in very high-status fabrics. Often you can barely detect it. I'm not saying that historical bodies never smelt, or that dirt didn't exist, but people noticed it, disliked it, and wished to avoid it. We don't seem to see that nowadays: our picture of the past is such that we are more than willing to believe that sootikins were a thing.

feesh · 22/07/2020 13:31

Seeing as we have some well qualified experts on here, can I ask.....how did they go to the toilet in those heavy clothes they were depicted wearing in old paintings? I have always wondered - I had enough trouble in my wedding dress!

Margotshypotheticaldog · 22/07/2020 13:45

This is so interesting, especially considering the current trend we have for Fast Fashion.

Cattermole · 22/07/2020 13:46

@feesh possibly not the official way but I have pee'd standing up over a drain in full 17th century dress.
Plant your feet sufficiently apart, if wearing a sweeping skirt, and....well there you go.

JasperRising · 22/07/2020 13:58

@ladycarlotta, I'm wondering what field you worked in! I've done research in wills and inventories and it's noticeable that even the very richest (next behind the king level) will still have their 'old cloak', their 2nd/3rd best gowns etc at death so not everything is given away. Funerals seem a good way to get cloth into circulation as the wealthy buy lots of mourning gowns and sometimes those are given away to the poor. And then of course there are all the 2nd best beds, and the pillows/coverlets etc being bequeathed - it really is a different world to ours in terms of disposable consumerism...

@feesh with help! After all the 'groom of the stool' was the person who helped the king go to the toilet... (I can't remember the female equivalent for the Queen)

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