To think that BMI is not racist?

[Leanandmean31]

www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/bmi-scale-racist-health_l_5f15a8a8c5b6d14c336a43b0/amp

This stuff is ridiculous. BMI is just a calculation of someone’s weight in relation to height. So what that it originated through measuring mainly white men? Some racial groups may have higher levels of obesity which probably are related to issues like poverty but that fact doesn’t mean that being obese is healthy as this article seems to suggest.

It also mentions Samoa as an example where people can be healthy at a higher weight. Rubbish. Diabetes is very prevalent among Pacific island populations precisely because obesity is so common so the notion that they are healthy at a higher weight is rubbish.

AIBU to think that bopo and fat activism is going too far when it’s creeping over into telling the population that being overweight is perfectly fine and doesn’t affect health?

Meanwhile I open my eyes and look around and see all of these fat people. Easier to say Bmi is wrong rather than do something about their weight.

@KetoIFWinnie

BMI is always presented as one measure and not perfect.

I think it is way harsher for short people than it is for tall people. So im not 100% behind it but still, it's one guide. You can consider other factors.

But in many cases in the NHS, BMI is used as pretty much the determining tool. My cousin was told she'd have to lose weight for an operation, because BMI, when she was a size 10/12 and you could see her ribs. She was an active athlete with more muscle than average for a white woman, but they wouldn't take that into consideration.

This article is quoting from sociologists and talking about social causes of obesity. Yes, someone might be obese due to growing up in poverty but that doesn’t make the health risks any lower

I agree. I read that part and thought the reason for being unhealthy doesn't mean they aren't unhealthy. It didn't make a lot of sense to me to correlate determining if someone is healthy or not with knowing why they are unhealthy. An unhealthy person is an unhealthy person. Knowing why is another kettle of fish.

Of course it is racist to base information solely on white people and then use it as standard for everyone.

@FamishedRd

There is no biological basis for race whatsoever.

It is ludicrous that people still believe there is and the myths that come with such biological essentialism.

In terms of genetics, there is often commonality between people whose ancestors came from the same region. Over time as populations mix more and more this will dissipate, but for now you can safely observe that some biological traits are more likely in particular populations (e.g. people from/with ancestors from South East Asia are at higher risk of diabetes; people from/with ancestors from West Africa are more likely to have sickle cell anemia). In most studies its good practice to have as diverse a pool of patients as possible so you can look at adverse event incidence in different groups for this precise reason - in fact we had a Chinese academic comment that cough is more frequently reported as a side effect in Asian populations vs European ones. So I think that in practical terms race is still considered a thing.

As for the OP's post: I was sceptical about BMI being racist, but then remembered that my best friend and I were the same height and dress size growing up and I weighed 10 kg more than her so maybe we did have very different body compositions, who knows?! We were broadly of similar ethnicities though, so

It seems some people are honing in on obese people. Personally, when I question the BMI calculation, I'm thinking about people who aren't fat or obese and aren't skinny either. Yet with high bmi...therefore "overweight".

@MynameisHappind

Doadeer I thought it was racist to say that black people are better runners than swimmers because of having higher muscles? I know you didn't exactly say that but your comment is sort of along those lines (I'm genuinely asking the thread and not accusing you of racism)

I wasn't drawing a generalisation about all black people I was just saying what my DH says! I think he is heavy but the reason he can't swim is cultural and the fact he never tries!

You are right it sounded a bit ignorant to say this and I certainly wouldn't say this about an entire ethnicity!

No, I don't think it's racist. It's common for studies on limited groups to be extrapolated, it's not always about race. It can also be sex, or even something like "people from Idaho."

It can be a problem because the group isn't representative enough. Sometimes it's not.

BMI is always limited in it's applicability, even for white men. It's a mistake to use it alone without looking in more detail at the individual, and a lot of people would say its not relevant at all for individuals.

@DrDavidBanner

I think BMI is a very inaccurate measurement of weight. For one muscle weighs more than fat so you can be very slim and fit and be classified as overweight. It also doesn't take into account different body compositions. If you look at dancers or gymnasts for example they're typically very short in stature but have a high muscle mass compared to none athletes they would be overweight.

Gymnasts are typically at the lowest end of BMI healthy range - sometimes under

Despite the claims, it is rare for women to be in the overweight BMI class purely because of muscle

• they normally have too much fat, in addition to a lot of muscle

Male athletes & sporty blokes may have high BMI due to muscle
They may have low body fat with this, or indeed also have too much fat as well

BMI is a good measure for the population as a whole
but to assess whether an individual is about the right weight, waist measurement may be needed as well

It is the % fat which determines whether someone is overweight, but since most people - and most doctors - don't own an accurate machine for this, waist is a good guide

My cousin was told she'd have to lose weight for an operation, because BMI, when she was a size 10/12 and you could see her ribs. She was an active athlete with more muscle than average for a white woman, but they wouldn't take that into consideration.

I agree that is stupid and doctors have to be able to exercise common sense and use their eyes when assessing a patient. I think many of them do though and your cousin was unlucky to get a dim one. I also think that anaesthetists prefer a low body weight so sometimes can be quite dogmatic and insist that even healthy people lose some weight before an op.

I don’t have an issue with the boundaries going up somewhat or going up for certain races just as they go down for others. I just think that the argument that it can’t be trusted at all is stupid. I have noticed that the bopo movement is jumping on the anti racist bandwagon now, claiming that any talk of healthy weight is racist. That ignores that obesity is just as prevalent among white people and that some of the fattest nations in the world are majority white.

In terms of genetics, there is often commonality between people whose ancestors came from the same region. Over time as populations mix more and more this will dissipate, but for now you can safely observe that some biological traits are more likely in particular populations (e.g. people from/with ancestors from South East Asia are at higher risk of diabetes; people from/with ancestors from West Africa are more likely to have sickle cell anemia). In most studies its good practice to have as diverse a pool of patients as possible so you can look at adverse event incidence in different groups for this precise reason - in fact we had a Chinese academic comment that cough is more frequently reported as a side effect in Asian populations vs European ones. So I think that in practical terms race is still considered a thing.

Yes... except that race is not really the issue. It's ethnicity. A black man from Ethiopia may have quite a different genetic profile than a black man from South Africa. It's a pretty big continent.

Waist to height ratio is also a good measure if a person thinks their body composition makes BMI inaccurate. I suspect that the fat-activists decrying BMI wouldn’t have a healthy waist to height ratio either. Maybe centimetres and inches are also discriminatory and violent...

@KetoIFWinnie

BMI is always presented as one measure and not perfect.

I think it is way harsher for short people than it is for tall people. So im not 100% behind it but still, it's one guide. You can consider other factors.

In fact, it is too generous to short people (5'4 and below) and too tough on tall people (6' and above) because at the same BMI, a short person tends to have a higher % fat than a tall one of the same sex

This is because BMI is a simple 2D / quadratic metric for 3D people

@DrDavidBanner

I think BMI is a very inaccurate measurement of weight. For one muscle weighs more than fat so you can be very slim and fit and be classified as overweight. It also doesn't take into account different body compositions. If you look at dancers or gymnasts for example they're typically very short in stature but have a high muscle mass compared to none athletes they would be overweight.

I know hundreds of dancers and can’t think of a single one who would be even approaching overweight.

It’s not racist/sexist in my opinion - but it is bad science.

@Goosefoot

In terms of genetics, there is often commonality between people whose ancestors came from the same region. Over time as populations mix more and more this will dissipate, but for now you can safely observe that some biological traits are more likely in particular populations (e.g. people from/with ancestors from South East Asia are at higher risk of diabetes; people from/with ancestors from West Africa are more likely to have sickle cell anemia). In most studies its good practice to have as diverse a pool of patients as possible so you can look at adverse event incidence in different groups for this precise reason - in fact we had a Chinese academic comment that cough is more frequently reported as a side effect in Asian populations vs European ones. So I think that in practical terms race is still considered a thing.

Yes... except that race is not really the issue. It's ethnicity. A black man from Ethiopia may have quite a different genetic profile than a black man from South Africa. It's a pretty big continent.

Absolutely, there is more genetic diversity in Africa than in the rest of the world. I tend to mix up the terms race and ethnicity tbh!

I remember a statistician once telling me that BMI was a load of bollocks and the only way to tell if someone was overweight was to weigh them underwater - but I can’t remember why!

Black people have different bone density to white people. It makes them heavier and hence you don’t see a lot of competitive black swimmers. So yes, BMI could be considered racist for failing to treat all people equally.

Black people have different bone density to white people. It makes them heavier and hence you don’t see a lot of competitive black swimmers. So yes, BMI could be considered racist for failing to treat all people equally.

That’s odd because swimmers tend to be quite heavy compared to other athletes plus sports where black athletes dominate ie distance running usually have very thin and light competitors. It’s more likely due to socioeconomic reasons with black kids being less likely to have access to a swimming pool when growing up. It’s like how rugby is dominated by middle and upper classes whereas football is the exact opposite. It’s cultural rather than due to some biological factors.

Stuckforthefourthtime
It's only bullocks if you do not know any black or mixed race women.

Hence what works for white women doesn't not always work for black and mixed race women. Hence pain relief in child birth, how bruises and rashes appear. Being asked to meet unobtainable limits that do not take into account physical traits down to race and ethnicity like BMi.

But yes let's call it all bullocks.

sports where black athletes dominate ie distance running usually have very thin and light competitors

Yes because they come either from places like Jamaica with a vast diversity or from Kenya and Ethiopia where the default is smaller, slighter, people. When the runners run for Canada, the USA or the UK, they tend to genetically be from one of the smaller African nations. Many have traced their ancestry. You can look at black races and ethnicities in Africa and see the differences in height and weight across nations.

Anyway the original point is that many of these even though smaller in stature and a fast athlete is still often heavier than the average white counterpart.

Bmi is not the only thing like this based on flawed science, car seat belts being made and designed for men is another major thing. All research done on men. This is sexist.

BMi is borderline sexism and racist.

Race is a social construct.

Ethnicity does affect medicine and sports.

Kenya and long distance running -
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/

compared to Sprinting -
'Only two non-African runners, France’s Christophe Lemaire, who is white, and Australia’s Irish-aboriginal Patrick Johnson, have cracked the top 500 100-meter times. There are no elite Asian sprinters—or, intriguingly, any from East or North Africa.'

BMI is a flawed tool. Now if the BMI is not mechanistically used then that might not be too bad but if a tool is going to be used, it may as well be appropriate to the population. If a single ethnic population has been used to generate the data for BMI and different ethnicities have different anatomical characteristics then the BMI tool risks either inappropriately attributing individuals of another ethnicity into being considered over-weight/obese or not being so when they should be.

All the talk of overweight people attacking BMI to hide the fact they're overweight won't make BMI any less imperfect.

I just double checked this on the NHS BMi calculator
These are my sisters stats.

5 foot 3 inches height
10.5 stone
AGE 33 (in 2 weeks) so I put 33
Mixed ethnicity
Moderate 30 to 60 min exercise

It comes out at a BMi of 26 and overweight
She wears a size 8 clothing.

My friend aged 35
5 foot 4
11 stone
size 10

Bmi is 26.3 and she is overweight.

She is very active, working out 3 to 5 times per week.

This is just a small selection. Imagine being active and healthy yet on the basis of BMi you are told that you are overweight.

And yes it does happen to other women not just black women but it happens alot to black and mixed race women.

Zilla1 agree 100*

I think we need to stop thinking that being "racist" means calling someone a name or some other simplistic definition.

Of course standardising the ideal weight of society based on white people is racist!

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