Conspiracy theories and religion

[UnaCorda]

(Inspired by, but not about, another thread.)

I realise this is a bit sacrilegious, but AIBU to suggest that you could draw parallels between religion and conspiracy theories, and also between the psychology of (some of) those who believe in either or both of them?

@Stripesgalore

I don’t think it is more psycho pathological than me being a vegetarian and using public transport.

I maybe used the wrong word by mentioning psychopathology, but you could give very simple, rational arguments for both of those choices: to save money, to help the environment, for health reasons, a combination of the above... They're not contentious reasons, and most sane people would not argue with the validity of any of those. The same would not apply to a discussion of a conspiracy theory (assuming at least some people in the discussion are non-conspiracists!).

I’m really interested in what you have to say OP but it would be great if you could explain in a bit more depth.

I don’t feel I know enough about conspiracy theorists. I think of them as people who collect and swap huge amounts of documentation to demonstrate some very obscure thing, like Paul McCartney is really dead.

Oh I see

Well many psychologists are religious and religion as this tends to be very much part of people’s life experience and it means different things to different people

Conspiracy theories often does tip into people’s paranoid thoughts (that why lots of cannabis smokers love a conspiracy theory)

The pull towards more evangelical forms of religion can be for a number of reasons conditioning, lack of education, a reason to believe it can help improve life (far easier to manipulate desperate people)

But if you are going with some views that are very much supported on here anyone who believes in a higher power is mentally ill and the often quoted is Richard Dawkins well no I do not agree

@Stripesgalore

‘There is a bigger meaning behind things and things don’t just happen by chance.

That is an opinion, not a fact. (And my opinion of this trope is that it is both trite and utter bollocks.)‘

It isn’t an opinion. It will get dark tonight because the earth revolves around its axis. We are able to predict and understand that because we can comprehend greater meaning than just thinking things are randomly happening by chance with no possible explanation or predictability.

I think there have maybe been some crossed wires...

No, obviously heliotropism is not a matter of chance, but not everything happens for a reason or is the result of a scientific law.

Also, there isn't a "bigger meaning" behind day and night, in the sense of it being spiritual or religious or somehow "woo" (which maybe isn't what you meant, but is how I understood it). It's physics.

I’m really interested in what you have to say OP but it would be great if you could explain in a bit more depth.

I'm really not sure how much more depth I can give. (Well, not without approaching the topic as an academic thesis, complete with references, etc.!) Have you read all my posts? I've expanded at least twice on my initial post.

There are some similarities in that both choose to take a very selective approach to the information they base decisions on (essentially ignoring all evidence to the contrary).

think they are driven by different impulses though In my experience religious people come from a huge range of different backgrounds and outlooks but they all have in common a need to believe that things are guided by a superior power which provides structure and a narrative to their lives as they need this to make sense of what happens to them.

Conspiracy theorists in my experience are usually not intelligent and with poor education and critical faculties who want to look and sound intelligent and latch onto stuff that they think makes them achieve this without properly taking the time to stress test the claims.

No there isn’t a bigger meaning in a supernatural sense, but most things are material and they are the consequence of a greater meaning in the way the world operates. The success of humans is based on our ability to comprehend this.

It could be that conspiracy theorists are using that comprehension but turning it to something bizarre and pointless in a very obsessional way.

Well many psychologists are religious and religion as this tends to be very much part of people’s life experience and it means different things to different people

Sorry, I can't make sense of this. Is there a word missing? "...many psychologists are religious and study religion...", perhaps?

I didn’t mean more academic, I just meant more on experiences you have had or people you have observed.

I didn’t delete part of it

Meant to write many psychologists are religious and that religion ....

No there isn’t a bigger meaning in a supernatural sense, but most things are material and they are the consequence of a greater meaning in the way the world operates. The success of humans is based on our ability to comprehend this.

I don't think we disagree in principle, although I'd quibble with the word "meaning". Gravity (for example) doesn't have a meaning: it just is.

@ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN

I didn’t delete part of it

Meant to write many psychologists are religious and that religion ....

"Well many psychologists are religious and that religion as this tends to be very much part of people’s life experience and it means different things to different people."??

Still doesn't make sense...!

Sorry still not making sense hopefully this will ...

Well many psychologists are religious and religion tends to be very much part of people’s life experience and it means different things to different people

I think often religion is viewed by many as being a set of beliefs and rules to live by that brings fear and comfort but it’s much more than than and I would expect psychologists to understand this and that life experiences play a huge part in people’s experience of their faith

We could perhaps settle on the word explanation.

If you think gravity just is, well no, there is an explanation as to why gravity exists. It isn’t random. It isn’t there for no reason at all.

And that’s important in terms of how people think. Because some people will just accept things as they are, and some will look for greater understanding and meaning. And there are positive and negative consequences to both of those human tendencies.

For example some people are prone to systems thinking, which is great, but potentially if you combine that with high levels of suspicion and obsession you get a particular kind of conspiracy theorist. Without the suspicion maybe they would have been an excellent ecologist or social psychologist.

We could perhaps settle on the word explanation. If you think gravity just is, well no, there is an explanation as to why gravity exists. It isn’t random. It isn’t there for no reason at all.

Of course there's an explanation. I wouldn't dispute that for a moment. But I don't think "explanation" and "meaning" are synonymous.

If we settle on "explanation" I'm happy.

@Stripesgalore

I didn’t mean more academic, I just meant more on experiences you have had or people you have observed.

Hmm... Well one thing would be that for the people I have in mind their religion/CTs are a central part of their life rather than something periforal (?sp). And that they would be willing to expend a lot of time and energy defending them if challenged.

I would definitely agree that religion permeates every part of a person’s life. I would consider it similar to having been brought up in a particular culture. But then again I know some people who claim to be Christians but are very unsure about what the basic beliefs are.

Some conspiracy theories like fake moon landing or false flag school shootings seem to be believed in quite casuallY by some people and obsessionally by others.

Well if you take an example of say someone becoming ill, a religious person would probably believe that that person became ill because it was God’s plan, that there was a deeper meaning to them being ill rather than just “bad luck”, that they became ill for “a reason”, while a conspiracy theorist might believe they became ill because of a 5G mast or because of a vaccine etc. and it’s part of some plan by the government to poison us all.

That’s where I think the similarities lie, both groups of people subscribe deeper meaning to events that often have no real meaning and happen by chance. When things happen that can’t be explained by anything more than bad luck or chance they try to explain them through “god’s plan” or some other elaborate theory. It’s the same as people who believe in ghosts, I might hear a bump in the night and think it’s the wind, a person who believes in ghosts might believe it’s a spirit trying to communicate with them.

YANBU OP

I'm an atheist and enjoy discussing religiosity with people who claim to believe based on faith. I also work with people who have diagnoses of delusional illnesses. While I don't believe that illness and religiosity is the same thing, I'm often struck by how the religious people indulge in exactly the same behaviours as the delusional ones in order to explain or justify their belief.

There is a lot of commonality between the two, so I think it's easy to see why you could make an argument for 'faith' being nothing other than a form of delusional illness. The 'conspiracy' element only tends to be manifest in the people who are delusional, but again, their 'arguments' in defence of their theories usually involve the irrationality, contradictions, ignoring of incongruence, reality denial, and reversal of the burden of proof, that go hand in hand with people defending religious belief.

Again, I don't believe the two have the same causes, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that religions and conspiracy theories are really all that different to each other. They both require a will to deny logic and reason, and the denial of inconsistencies and contradictions.

This reads to me like a conspiracy theory about religion! Calling a belief in God, which is held by over 50% of the world (29% are Christian before you add in other religions) a 'psychopathology' just because you think it's irrational is frankly one of the most offensive things I've read on Mumsnet yet.

And no, most Christians do not think illness is part of God's plan. If you actually learned what we believe, rather than making it up, you might learn something useful.

Just because lots of people believe it doesn't make it more valid than relatively uncommon conspiracy theories. Lots of people believe in qanon.

As a Catholic and a Mathematician I refuse to vote . Clearly you could draw parallels, you could draw parallels between a lot of things. It doesn't necessarily mean anything "correlation isn't causation" ultimately science and scientists exist because people wanted to answer the fundamental questions of life. Religion and philosophy exist for the same reason. Alongside those who made genuine discoveries there have always been those who have searched for meaning and found it in something ridiculous.

I believe that questioning things and trying to find meaning is part of the human condition. We are not just another mammal trying to survive, there's more to us.

Is it possible that conspiracy theories exist so that whatever the real conspiracy is can be clubbed in with them and we'll ever question it? Maybe Elvis really isn't dead.

Religion and conspiracy theories do the same job.

People are seeking order/control in a chaotic universe.

The idea that someone is in charge, that someone is making decisions is comforting.

Personally I think it is all just random chaos and take comfort from that. But whatever floats your boat. Just don't try and tell me how I should live.

It's funny you should say that because I have recently come across two people, both with deep faith in different ways, who are into conspiracy theories - one who is also seriously into the Magna Carta at the moment too.

I wouldn't have thought it was a general thing though.