To be outraged that prison officers get a 4k bonus for Covid overtime, while NHS staff have got nothing?

[PPEcompensatoryeyeliner]

www.lowdownnhs.info/news/covid-19-bonuses-for-prison-staff-what-about-care-workers/

I waa talking to a friend who works in a prison yesterday. They are receiving 4k bonuses for commiting to 9hrs a week overtime for 12 weeks. They are on the same pay scale as nurses.

I don't resent them bonuses, they a do hard and difficult job. But I know so many nurses who routinely do unpaid overtime to make sure things keep running and patients get care, and it's been repeatedly estimated that between 40-50% of nurses do 5hrs unpaid each week. I personally as a ward manager usually work at least an extra hour a day and have done for years, if I don't something is missed.

I think the government knew that NHS and care staff would work for free because we're needed to, and counted on this.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

Of course no-one was prepared for CV, we've never seen anything like it in our lifetime. But prisons are a) an extremely dangerous workplace anyway and b) one of the most dangerous environments for CV spread.

Had the NHS needed to have staff on CV wards working more than an extra day a week for 4-12 weeks you can guarantee there would have been an incentive payment. People would simply not commit to it otherwise. Facts are, the NHS didn't need to do that.

The prison service did. It's not a bonus for hard work its a bonus for committing to working more than an extra day a week for 1-3 months during a pandemic in one of the most dangerous workplaces there is and the strain that would have put on the PO and their family. Many would have been unable to commit to anyway so we're really talking about a relatively small number.

And really, it has nothing to do at all with the OP complaining that she often works up to an hour a day unpaid OT on a MH ward. Completely different scenarios and issues. One an exceptional payment in exceptional circumstances for an exceptional burden on staff, the other a wider issue about NHS staff regularly working unpaid OT.

"Surely you are making it worse by doing it yourself? If you all stopped working unpaid overtime they’d be forced to either start paying or cut services in line with spending."
We work extra hours because the vast majority of the staff are committed to the patients they are looking after. I worked an hour and half past my time the other day a patient had died in very tragic circumstances, initially involved in a very emotional and complex resus situation we then had understandbaly hysterical relatives to support and care for. You cant just walk away from that type of situation. I've given up going off on time, patients relatives staff other specialists outside agencies all want to speak to you, if you've been working all day with them you cant just go bye see you in two days time or hand it over to someone else who doesn't fully understand the complexities or by the time you've explained it all you wouldn't get off any earlier. Every conversation has to be documented as well many staff are so busy doing the care they doing have time to do documentation so hand over to the next shift and then stay late to do that. The classic line for management " we owe you X hours go home early another day". Fat chance.
No on wants "services cut" any more than they already are I think this is something non NHS workers don't always get the total commitment by the majority of staff to the patients and the NHS itself this is why people stay past their time on a regular basis.

@RedOasis

I agree. I've worked in the NHS for over 20 years and my trust has never paid OT. But if I worked over an hour over my shift I'd put it down as TOIL and always got it back. Less than an hour I wouldn't bother as I think it all evens out anyway with finishing a bit early some days or whatever.

I appreciate however, that lots of NHS do do more unpaid OT but that really can't be compared with what the OP is complaining about here.

I have worked many a Christmas and New year I have never had a paid taxi nor have any of my colleagues. Also wrt enhancements it's the same pay on a Sunday as a BH or Christmas. I have never had over time, you need to claim it back, that never happens. It is all good will and staff choosing not to leave patients when they need you.

Again we are not trained in a pandemic, infectious diseases yes but not ones that kill your colleagues. Some of us still awaiting FIT testing so no we didn't get any extra training. Management were feeling their way through this.

@Rupertpenrysmistress But do you rely on public transport?

I haven't worked shifts for years but when I did and I worked Christmas Day/Boxing day and was outside walking distance, I had a taxi paid for me.

Why is MN so intent on bashing each other’s professions, no one is more important than anybody else. Surely we should feel glad when one is given recognition for their hard work?

I’m well aware prisons can be a dangerous and stressful environment I work in forensic mh

Mental health wards/units are also an area where covid spread rapidly as social distancing just can not be managed on many in many places (lack of capacity) and can also be at times a dangerous and often stressful places to work. Myself and all my colleagues have done hours of unpaid over time (working with covid too) I would feel safer working in a prison than on a an acute ward any day

I’m not sure what area you work in. We did not all get the overtime (though believe some shall get it as a kind bonus from the government), we didn’t have adequate PPE for sometime and we do not all work in particularly safe environments hence why we wear personal safety alarms and have various systems at work to keep us safe. Many of us went above and beyond our roles that should be recognised

Do you really want staff to go strike? Basic care stopped, medication not managed, mh patients not supervised in the way they need to be (some ex offenders)

Think again what would happen

No one goes into health or mental health care for the financial rewards but staff morale is low cuts backs makes the worker harder and hard work should be recognised by decent pay and conditions and certainly when dealing with such stressful situations where overtime has to be done to manage that should absolutely be paid

But you know I get the odd free coffee and discount so should be grateful

I do not rely on public transport but I won't talk about the parking.
Let's just support each other the services we are discussing are vital, none particularly well paid.

I dont think any one professionalisms is more important than others I genuinely hope the prison officers enjoy their bonus I'm sure they deserve every penny of it. I also aware that nurses/doctors physios etc will never receive a bonus simply because there's too many of us and it would cost the country too much money.
But Im fed up of working more than my contracted hours working from home (again unpaid) missing breaks not getting a drink in 13 hours and no one really caring what ever they may say of write on the daily briefing. Did you know if I take a tiny bit milk from the ward kitchen or grab 1 biscuit because Im starving and had no time to eat in 13 hours its viewed as stealing and is a disciplinary offence? Yet almost on a. daily basis everyday they steal my time off me.
Many relatives say to me they had no idea what nurses actually do how complex and multi faceted our roles are.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

Also forensic MH. Worked on acute wards, PICUs and medium secure hospitals and prisons. You've obviously never worked in a prison if you think it's safer in any way, least of all in terms of CV. You actually made me laugh saying that. Acute wards are a piece of piss in comparison, sorry.

I'll ask you. If your employer asked you to work 9 hrs OT a week for 4-12 weeks during CV, would you have said yes?

Would you be more likely to say yes if there was a cash incentive?

YABU

It’s not a race to the bottom and I would think that prison officers generally have a harder job with worse T and C than NHS staff.

Plus plenty of people work for free. I won’t be doing it again as it’s a mug’s game but it’s hardly unique to our sainted NHS staff and teachers. As I said though, it’s not a race to the bottom so if you feel you should get more you can but ask.

My experience is obviously different my experience in acute ward hasn’t been that bad PICU a different matter others I know has been awful. And no on some wards covid there is no management of social distancing at all there can’t be you must know that yet mh staff in these wards were the last to get PPE

We had no choice but to work overtime as we had so many staff off few nurses around as all on the covid wards we were looking those with covid we had no training in this we are not trained in physical care. We don’t get paid overtime anyway when it’s the odd few hours we take it as TOIL even now we are struggling staff off as many are run down as the impact of the lockdown is still having a knock on effect especially with drugs (and that drugs are being mixed is addeding to another issue we are dealing with with)

I have not said that those working in prison shouldn’t receive the money that is I believe owed to them but so it should be to other workers

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

I have no problem with NHS staff going on strike, I've done it myself. Not sure how that relates to the OP though?

Prison officers are banned from striking by the way. It's illegal for them to do so.

I did 2 sometimes 3hrs at the beginning of lockdown for a few weeks and many many calls

I’m a sp (totally on my own) overtime isn’t something I can do all the time regardless of pay incentives

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

Exactly. Most POs couldn't commit to it either. It's a very small number that have been able to and I think it's absolutely fair there should be an incentive for that level of commitment and as I said, the NHS would have done the same if it was needed but it wasn't.

And it would've been supported by the public and other services without any 'bitching' that you assumed would happen.

And I doubt POs would have been complaining about NHS frontline workers getting it.

@RedOasis

I think it’s a rarity that people do only their exact hours and minutes at work. Most folk do many extra hours/ work through breaks/lunch start early, leave later than their scheduled times. I don’t know ANYONE his never been held up , or had to deal with something extra at work

Exactly that.

If we all counted up the minutes over a whole week or a month, most of us would be surprised at how much free time we've given our employers.

You haven’t seen the bitching on here about nhs staff getting a freebie well it’s not hard to find keep looking

It was needed in some areas for staff to be offered overtime pay it just wasn’t and it was expected that staff should manage and we had the choice either we do and things run as smoothly as possible or we stick to our hours and there is a fall out. I wasn’t going to not answer a call to one of my staff crying down the phone that they are finding it hard to cope or they are panicking as they are expected to do look after someone with covid without training in physical care that we are a team that works together (and have excellent outcomes) . It wasn’t just our anxiety we were all dealing with it was those we work with

I’ve said it wouldn’t be everyone supporting a bonus (which would really be a pay rise or pay for overtime) the government are not going to announce we shall pay all the overtime owed to nhs staff as many would be outraged that it wasn’t paid in the first place

Nurses largely now come into the “profession” as degree holders. They want nursing to be a profession. When I was younger, professional people worked as required. They didn’t count hours and they didn’t go on strike. Prison officers don’t require degrees. They are not quite the same. If nurses wish to be considered the same as other professionals, lawyers, engineers, etc then it’s a case of sucking it up as millions of others do who are not unionised. If nurses want to be doctors and ore money, then do the training. That’s what every single profession has to do to get to the top. There’s always a pecking order. I wonder if the prison governors got extra for overtime? Everyone has had to pull together.

@RedOasis

You get paid overtime for overtime. So I don’t know why they are getting a bonus? I’m slightly confused by this culture that people who did their jobs - the jobs they chose and trained for - think that they are entitled to a bonus for doing those jobs? Surely getting paid for the job you chose to do is what you signed up for? Why is everybody now demanding bonuses for doing what they are paid to do?

Evidently it wasn't enough of an incentive. It's a free country, and if you can't get the staff you need at the rate you're offering, you either do without or pay more.

If nurses wish to be considered the same as other professionals, lawyers, engineers, etc then it’s a case of sucking it up as millions of others do who are not unionised

Lawyers and engineers don’t earn a pittance.

I don’t begrudge them being paid overtime and nurses should also be paid for the hours they worked if over their usual hours.

It’s nice to see another area being recognised as we heard less about other key workers than the NHS. All the freebies, skipping queues etc only applied to those keyworkers not all keyworkers.

Lots of school staff worked through their holidays with no pay so a bonus for those would have been nice as well.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

You keep avoiding what is actually being discussed here.

I'll ask again.

Was anyone in your area of work asked to commit to 9 hrs overtime every week for 4-12 weeks exposing themselves to CV during the pandemic? You've already said you couldn't have committed to it.

Do you think that if people were asked to do that, it would require a finanical incentive for them to do so? You've already said you couldn't have, regardless of financial incentives.

Do you think if NHS staff had been required to do that, the public would have 'bitched' about it?

Because that was your argument. That it was a 'bonus' for POs that people would have bitched about if offered to NHS staff.

And I think that's not the case.

And i've worked on MH wards and also had time and motion studies conducted in teams and wards i've worked on. Apart from a few very busy days with serious incidents, people generally think they're working a lot more than they are. That's not a critiscism, it's fact from results of T and M studies (I include myself in that).

It's a bit like 'secret eaters' that don't realise how many extra calories they're taking in because it doesn't register. People think shit I worked till 6 today when I was supposed to finish at 5 and don't clock the minutes they're late a few days, the few minutes longer breaks plus fag breaks (not everyone smokes obv). The time spent just chatting at handover or in ward rounds etc. Popping to the shop for lunch etc. All the time spent 'informally' discussing a service user or an incident which will be discussed again in handover/WR/CPA meeting. Time wasted with IT problems etc. Chatting with colleagues about their lives, their weekend etc over coffee or a doughnut or toast on an early shift.

In over 20 years in MH acute care, i've never known anyone work flat out every shift. Ever. There's a huge amount of time wasted.

But people think they're doing unpaid OT regularly when really, they're not. They just don't clock the time wasted.

Before T and M studies I knew plenty of staff who claimed TOIL for hrs worked after the shift or not having a break or claiming not to have time to go to the toilet. It wasn't true

Now we were not asked. If we were asked and had adequate PPE yes I’m sure some many would have. We routinely work overtime the odd few hours

Did we have enough staff yes only because we were doing overtime and our reliable bank staff were helping out

we all did overtime some more than others and we were exposed to covid and at beginning lack of PPE

The usual work day changed overnight we had to work differently and because we work so well as a team and support each other it was a smoothish transition

We are always busy at work some busier days than others some are busier that other there is always staff who are more proactive. Are we flat out at times (especially as services are cut back) and there are calm periods. My day (management very involved hands on) is always busy

Since March we are low on staff especially first two months and we don’t have the medical staff around that we do usually do yes we were working above and beyond we are not physically trained healthcare workers but that is what we have worked as during this time and to do that without the full training (with a highly infectious virus and knowing that some you work with are high risk) is stressful and lack of PPE at the beginning

I can manage hostility physical threats are obviously harder to manage but that is what I’m trained and experienced in

@sauvignonblancplz

Not getting paid for overtime? I don’t know any nurse who doesn’t get paid for over time. Bank holidays etc they get paid double & quite often my friend gets to leave early , so if what you’re saying is true I think it’s balanced.

PO had no ppe , I actually don’t think they follow the same pay scale and I believe they have a much, much tougher job.

I do believe that nurses pay scales are wrong & should be based on skill and experience and that overall they definitely need a rise in line with inflation but I don’t think they are any worse off than any other front line job, or , police, fire service or teachers.

What a pile of shite, why let the facts get in the way of a post though? (even more irritating when I spot the user name)