Should kids wear facemasks in school to reduce second wave and more school closures?

[947EliseChalotte]

Should kids wear masks in school in September when there are 30 in a class to reduce chances of second wave and avoid school shut down again?

How about we go old school? Teens who won't wear masks properly (obviously, medical exceptional apart) are suspended. If they can't respect other people's right to a safe learning/working environment, then they forfeit their right to education for, say, 3 days. They respect society's rules for protection of the vulnerable if they (and their parents) want society's benefits.

Hope you’ve got your hard hat with you AnIckabog. Can’t say I disagree. And it won’t just protect the vulnerable it could mean a less disrupted education for everyone else too.

So much crazy talk here. Somebody, anybody show the EVIDENCE it's beneficial. Instead of hysterically asserting it. Nobody here has said anything to convince people like me that there's any benefit.

All. I hope this is meant as sarcasm?

I meant to write Anlck. I hope you're post was intended to be sarcastic?

Why dont we go more old school. And cane the little shits too. FFS.

@P999

So much crazy talk here. Somebody, anybody show the EVIDENCE it's beneficial. Instead of hysterically asserting it. Nobody here has said anything to convince people like me that there's any benefit.

If you're talking about masks, the scientific consensus is that it limits transmission. If you want to read up, start with WHO website.

@AnIckabog

How about we go old school? Teens who won't wear masks properly (obviously, medical exceptional apart) are suspended. If they can't respect other people's right to a safe learning/working environment, then they forfeit their right to education for, say, 3 days. They respect society's rules for protection of the vulnerable if they (and their parents) want society's benefits.

I think schools manage to get pupils to do all sorts of utterly pointless things like wearing ties and certain shoes, they don't need to get this draconian, just follow normal practices for annoying school rule enforcement.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jep.13415
www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857

CDC, WHO and BMJ should also have stuff. There’s a paper somewhere comparing transmission by surgeons wearing surgical face masks and cloth ones that concludes there wasn’t much difference between the two up to a certain time point. Can’t find where I’ve saved the link to that though.

@P999

So much crazy talk here. Somebody, anybody show the EVIDENCE it's beneficial. Instead of hysterically asserting it. Nobody here has said anything to convince people like me that there's any benefit.

The WHO seems pretty convinced-I’ll listen to them.

P999.

Increasing evidence from Israel and Melbourne is showing what happens if you just open normally and hope for the best. Teenagers are rubbish at SD especially as they are not at particular risk themselves. Even now at the small levels of pupils on site they need constant reminders and breach it routinely especially when they move between lessons.

But what do you care; it's not your safety on the line is it?

Nobody wants children to wear masks but on the other hand they still want the teachers around to teach them, so it's tricky.

No. I do care. But i care about evidence based decision. It's a cheap shot, because you disagree with me, to claim I'm a murderous covid spreader. That's not debate. That's trying to shut down debate. I read the WHO guidance on the gen public and it's v inconclusive. So, essentially, no consensus at all and jury still out

P999
The OP of a recent thread. Seems pretty convincing to me.

"Do people really still believe that the balance of evidence doesn't support the widespread used of face coverings and mask wearing to reduce Covid 19 transmission?61
13/07/2020 17:37bumblingbovine49

Because if so, I really can't see how you come to that conclusion.
This is only based on the first 2 pages of a Google search on ' Evidence for mask wearing' so I am willing to be convinced otherwise but this seems to me to me to be even more convincing than I had thought . Of course if it just because you don't want to wear one, that is different.

Face covering/Mask wearing – evidence that they help reduce Covid 19 transmission

PRO
July 2020 Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review - We recommend that public officials and governments strongly encourage the use of widespread face masks in public, including the use of appropriate regulation

June 2020 The Lancet- l " The use of face masks was protective for both health-care workers and people in the community exposed to infection, with both the frequentist and Bayesian analyses lending support to face mask use irrespective of setting. Our unadjusted analyses might, at first impression, suggest use of face masks in the community setting to be less effective than in the health-care setting, but after accounting for differential N95 respirator use between health-care and non-health-care settings, we did not detect any striking differences in effectiveness of face mask use between setting

June 2020: University of Califonia San Francisco. mnemonic that Chin-Hong likes is the “Three W’s to ward off COVID-19:” wearing a mask, washing your hands, and watching your distance.
“But of the three, the most important thing is wearing a mask,” he said. Compared to wearing a mask, cleaning your iPhone or wiping down your groceries are “just distractors.” There’s little evidence that fomites (contaminated surfaces) are a major source of transmission, whereas there is a lot of evidence of transmission through inhaled droplets, said Chin-Hong. “You should always wear masks and socially distance,” said Rutherford. “I would be hesitant to try to parse it apart. But, yes, I think mask wearing is more important.”

June 2020: Stamford University. The timing of these new recommendations is critically important. Across the country, communities are beginning to end shelter-in-place and to return to work and community settings. Nonmedical face masks will become an increasingly important way, in conjunction with frequent hand washing and social distancing, to prevent the resurgence of disease

June 2020 : Health affairs research article. The study provides evidence that states in the US mandating use of face masks in public had a greater decline in daily COVID-19 growth rates after issuing these mandates compared to states that did not issue mandates. These effects are observed conditional on other existing social distancing measures and are independent of the CDC recommendation to wear facial covers issued on April 3.

June 2020 : NPR news. This month, the real world provided anecdotal evidence to back that assessment: The head of the local health department in Springfield, Mo., reported that after two hair stylists tested positive for the coronavirus, none of the 140 clients and six co-workers potentially exposed came down with COVID-19. As The Washington Post reports, officials said the two hair stylists wore cloth masks. According to a statement from the health department in Springfield, the salon also had other policies in place, such as distancing salon chairs and staggering appointments.

May 2020 DELVE – Data Evaluation and Learning for Viral Epidemics Face masks could offer an important tool for contributing to the management of community transmission of Covid19 within the general population. ….. Our analysis suggests that their use could reduce onward transmission by asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic wearers if widely used in situations where physical distancing is not possible or predictable, contrasting to the standard use of masks for the protection of wearers. If correctly used on this basis, face masks, including homemade cloth masks, can contribute to reducing viral transmission.

May 2020 : Forbes Currently the advice is to wear a mask if you are going to go to an enclosed area where you may expose yourself to other people. OK, that last part may have come out wrong. Rather, it is to protect others from what fluid droplets may be coming from you. Well, that may not leave quite the right impression, but you get the picture.
Outside in the open, the wind may blow away such droplets. However, in a store or other inside location, your emitted droplets could end up in someone else’s lungs.

April 2020: Wired In a nutshell: The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard
No one complained about the lack of evidence for 20-second hand-washing. So why did we treat face masks differently?

April 2020 Journal of nursing studies In summary, there is a growing body of evidence supporting all three indications for respiratory protection – community, healthcare workers and sick patients (source control). The largest number of randomised controlled trials have been done for community use of masks by well people in high-transmission settings such as household or college settings. There is benefit in the community if used easily, with hand hygiene and if compliant.

Universal face mask use is likely to have the most impact on epidemic growth in the community, given the high risk of asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic transmission .

NEUTRAL

Jun 2020 Centre for Infectious Disease and Policy. "It's actually not helpful for scientists to hide behind a curtain of certainty. There is uncertainty about masks. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be wearing them," Kriebel said. Instead of clamoring for scientific studies to back up mandates on mask use, Kriebel argues for more transparency in public health messaging. "I would say, 'Mask use is our best judgment right now, and we will tell you if we get more evidence," he said.

"The world is much messier than we would like to admit," said Kreibel. "We do our best and admit our uncertainty."

May 2020 Science Media Centre A number of responses to the DELVE study above. Most are not saying masks are harmful just that more evidence is needed

ANTI
June 2020 Reference The conversation National and international public health bodies now recommend that members of the public use masks in places where it’s difficult to maintain social distancing, such as on public transport. We strongly urge readers to carry on with good hand hygiene and social distancing, not touching their face and using reusable (rather than disposable) face coverings – and safely disposing of them at the end of their useful life

May 2020 Medical Express Social distancing and handwashing are still the best. In the meantime, Saxinger advises sticking with what we already know for sure. "There is a risk that people who wear masks will feel perhaps too confident and behaviors may change," she said. "To be honest, masks are unlikely to be a substitute for maintaining distancing and handwashing—those are our really solid, proven, core measures right now."

If all secondary pupils are going to be mixing within their year group of up to 300 without distance, and conveniently facing the teacher, they ought to be wearing masks to protect each other and school staff.

A classroom is an enclosed space, and teachers and pupils are in there for roughly an hour at a time (not just passing, or close for under 15 minutes or anything else that apparently negates transmission) If other public spaces and work places need everyone entering them to wear masks, then schools need adults and children to do so too. I accept we can at least track connections because classes already have registers and in a school environment we know who has been in contact with whom, which is different from shops and on public transport, but these 'consistent' groupings may be numerous different groups and include many people.

I claimed no such thing: I am saying it is self evident that you are indifferent to the fact that staff and pupils in school are denied the sd or ppe protections that other people are entitled to. Just today Hancock claimed that offices don't need ppe as they don't work when exposed to the same people for a prolonged period. I am not sure what his evidence is for that but it illustrates to me the government is quite willing to throw everyone in schools under the bus in order to open the economy. Teachers like myself are worried for our safety bit you view is no no and no to masks

What I am sure of is that there is increasing empirical evidence that opening schools without precautionary steps can lead to a rise in infection which other posters have already provided. By the same token this has not happened in countries who have adopted blended learning or masks.

You seem to want a definitive study on the effect of mask wearing on transmission and are discounting or ignoring any other information which does not fit your view.

I've previously said I hope I am wrong and worrying about nothing but we won't know until october

June 2020 : NPR news.This month, the real world provided anecdotal evidence to back that assessment:The head of the local health department in Springfield, Mo, reported that after two hair stylists tested positive for the coronavirus, none of the 140 clients and six co-workers potentially exposed came down with COVID-19.

This anecdotal evidence is a bit misleading though - only 46 people were actually tested for coronavirus (out of 146). Presumably one hair stylist infected the other one - but how many of the 100 people who were not tested avoided having a test because of financial/social implications for them/their family? Household members having to self-isolate etc.

No, there was no spike when children went back this term without masks, and no evidence that they would make any difference at all. There is enough for staff to be dealing with (more useful stuff) without the unnecessary hassle of enforcing a pointless mask regime.

@labyrinthloafer

^”@P999
So much crazy talk here. Somebody, anybody show the EVIDENCE it's beneficial. Instead of hysterically asserting it. Nobody here has said anything to convince people like me that there's any benefit.”

If you're talking about masks, the scientific consensus is that it limits transmission. If you want to read up, start with WHO website.”^

Until very recently the WHO was consistently adamant that mass mask wearing was not supported by robust scientific evidence that it was an effective and advisable measure. Then it suddenly changed its advice. Journalists from BBC Newsnight investigated this and found evidence that the WHO had been subjected to intensive political lobbying to change its advice, and when this evidence was put to the WHO they did not deny it.

Stickystick

1. There were 55 outbreaks in schools last week.
2. At present no more than a quarter of a year group can be in at one time. Since only year 10 are in which is 20% of the school that means that only 5% of the school is in at one time.
3. Social distancing of 2m is enforced in most schools and classrooms at least in secondary.

4.in Israel bubbles of 30 in lower schools did not lead to infection either it was only when they opened schools fully cases took off.

It worries me when posters say people need to do their own risk assessments...

Thank you stickystick. That's really interesting

@Stickystick

No, there was no spike when children went back this term without masks, and no evidence that they would make any difference at all. There is enough for staff to be dealing with (more useful stuff) without the unnecessary hassle of enforcing a pointless mask regime.

Hardly anyone is in! Surely people understand that 1000 is a bigger number than 50???

No not for a whole school day. It's one thing on a bus or in a shop but not for a whole day. We're in scotland where kids have to wear them in shops/on busses and my 8 and 14 year old can cope with it for that long but would hate it for a whole day and so would I. My Ds especially has sensory issues and would not cope with it for more than a short time.

@Stickystick

No, there was no spike when children went back this term without masks, and no evidence that they would make any difference at all. There is enough for staff to be dealing with (more useful stuff) without the unnecessary hassle of enforcing a pointless mask regime.

In the week before half term there were 15 new respiratory outbreaks in schools. For the last three-four weeks, we’ve had around 45-55 new outbreaks a week. The number of outbreaks we usually have in schools at this time of year is 0. Nationally, there are now more outbreaks in schools than hospitals and some areas seem to have more outbreaks in schools than care homes. And that’s with class sizes capped at 15 and mostly just the very youngest pupils back. (Who may well be less likely to transmit it).

I fully support wearing them in shops and public transport btw I just think all day is too long and will interfere with concentration so I think kids should be going back with distancing or in bubbles until the virus is suppressed enough for them to be back without masks.