To think that we are being forced into a cashless society?

[rockingthelook]

My parents really don't like to use debit cards, especially the contactless ones, however , due to C19 this seems to be the way forward? They like to take their money from the bank and use the cash rather than cards, really don't want to bank or pay for anything online because they don't trust it, but everything seems to be geared towards contactless. They had a walk today and wanted to buy a cup of tea from a takeaway cafe and couldn't, not only because the place wouldn't take cash, but the cards had to be contactless, and their cards aren't (they asked not to have this feature as frightened of them being stolen and used) It seems to be that the banks etc are using the C19 situation to force things through, my mum was even told by the cashier in the bank the other day to use the cash machine in the bank rather than get the cash over the counter because of the 'risks', fgs it's THEIR money, can't believe Age Concern/UK aren't all over this!

Doing it on a card doesn't feel the same

I don't understand that mindset. You're still spending money and the card/cash is just the payment mechanism.

The OPs parents could use a credit card for all their spending and then just pay the bill off each month by DD, which overcomes their fear of a contactless card linked to their bank account. But I don't understand why people spend from their bills account, that must be a nightmare to keep up with.

There are different systems for the retailers and the market/charging structure has changed a lot in recent years. Some smaller retailers probably need to review what they are using, so they don't get hit with high charges which wipe out their profit on smaller transactions.

It used to be something like 30 p for a debit card transaction but 2% with no minimum for a credit card transaction, which meant that debit card transactions on small purchases didn't stack up for the retailer but credit cards were fine, but obviously the retailer can't be expected to interrogate every customer to see whether they are using a credit or a debit card, and most people seem to use debit cards, despite credit cards offering a lot of advantages in terms of cashback, purchase protection, cashflow management and being cheaper if the alternative is going into overdraft. But many now are a flat percentage for all transactions, which is usually more favourable to the retailer, especially those who's typical spend is low, eg convenience stores, takeaways, cafes. Of course handling cash also costs, but many small retailers will use a lot of the cash they take to pay suppliers and for their own personal spending, so they won't be banking all the cash that they take, which is not the same as not declaring it all btw.

But the system is not always 100% reliable and failure could cost the retailer a lot of lost trade if most of their customers have usually used cards and stopped carrying cash. On the individual's side, it's best to have at least two payment methods available, in case one bank's systems go down so you can use the other. It's probably also worth carrying a small amount of cash even if it takes months to use it, for the odd occasion where the system is down, or a retailer doesn't take cards or charges extra to do so. Eg, the parking machines charge an extra 25 p to pay by card, which is totally ridiculous, but lots of extra charges like that can add up.

Particularly useful when teaching children and teens the value of money. Doing it on a card doesn't feel the same.
Dont agree, my dc are early 20s but have cards from age 13. Because they have been able to see exactly how much money is left after it goes out on their phone, they manage just fine.
I would have thought monzo cards are brilliant for people who struggle with finance as again you can see exactly what is happening to your money and impose limits

Agree with the apps being beneficial for budgeting. So many people have the 'it's only a few quid' mindset over particular aspects of their spending, eg a daily coffee and a meal deal but if their app tells them that doing this each working day costs well over £1000 per year, they might think twice, especially if they feel they are short of money for other things they want to buy/do.

Using a card is fine for people who've spent some of their childhood using money. You already know its value and have had the experience of physically handing over cash as a kid in exchange for what you want. I do believe that children need that initial experience to really grasp monetary value.

Just because some people find cards easier, it doesn't mean you should be able to make that choice for everyone else. Old people shouldn't have to stop using money just because some other people think they must be forced to adapt.

You already know its value and have had the experience of physically handing over cash as a kid in exchange for what you want. I do believe that children need that initial experience to really grasp monetary value.

But why? Cash is also just an arbitrary denoter of monetary value - it's not like you're handing over gold - so your perception that it's more 'real' than a number on a screen just reflects your own upbringing. If cash feels more real to you than a gift token or a bank balance then that's cultural, not an objective fact.

Slightly off the point, but I realised yesterday that I am in danger of forgetting my pin number, since the Contactless limit has been raised to £45. I have made no purchases larger than that face-to-face since lockdown so have not needed my pin. I had to spend a few anxious minutes dragging it up from my memory. Anyone else find that?

I'm perfectly competent with online banking and bill-paying and I like to use cash. Choice is important - why deprive people of it?

One place we still use cash is at the local tennis club, non members have to pay to play, honesty box provided. I suppose we could introduce online but then we'd have to display our bank details at the door/ and expect people to have an internet connection.

@Nocaloriesinchocolate

Slightly off the point, but I realised yesterday that I am in danger of forgetting my pin number, since the Contactless limit has been raised to £45. I have made no purchases larger than that face-to-face since lockdown so have not needed my pin. I had to spend a few anxious minutes dragging it up from my memory. Anyone else find that?

Yes - had exact same panic the other day paying for a big shop

Yes cashless society is great until your bank fucks up and then what?
I currently have an M & S card and all sorts of transactions going in and out of my account. After four hours hanging on the phone it appears it is a known problem. Unfortunately they didn’t think to notify customers and have absolutely no idea when it will be fixed.
Makes it incredibly difficult to reconcile my account.

Slightly off the point, but I realised yesterday that I am in danger of forgetting my pin number, since the Contactless limit has been raised to £45. I have made no purchases larger than that face-to-face since lockdown so have not needed my pin. I had to spend a few anxious minutes dragging it up from my memory. Anyone else find that

No, because I've still had to put it in a couple of times because I went to the shops rather more than the COVID police thought was absolutely essential and have had the same PIN for about 30 years, but I did forget my car registration number the first time I went on a work visit a few days ago.

I normally visit client sites about once a week and they usually ask for car registration number when booking onto site, but we weren't doing visits between mid March and mid June, but we've just started up again and I couldn't remember my registration number because I hadn't been asked for it for months.

@Stefoscope

Have you ever been on the receiving end of an HMRC investigation? *@Thunderpunt* they're the worst aren't they? We had an 18 month long one which finally which concluded at the start of this year. It nearly broke my DP despite the fact he'd done nothing wrong. We simply worked extremely hard to increase business turnover in a short amount of time. Then the lockdown happened and we had a six figure sum theft fom a burglary to our shop in May which we're still awaiting hearing from our insurance about. Earlier, we were discussing how there's nothing left for hardworking small business owners in this country.

I am closing my business. The government and large corporations have a straightforward policy of destroying small business, and they are using HMRC to help them. They want all the work to be done by large corporations and outsourcers . I am trying to get a job, any job instead of running my own micro business - it's just too expensive and risky - which is exactly how the government wants it.

@VeryQuaintIrene

I'm perfectly competent with online banking and bill-paying and I like to use cash. Choice is important - why deprive people of it?

This.

If it’s any help I am elderly (79 yesterday) and dh 80. Just like your parents until lock down my dh would go to the bank to collect cash for shopping etc. However, I have been shopping online and don’t use a debit card. I use a credit card which is paid off every month by posting a cheque. The reason I do that is if i am subjected to fraud I would sooner have it happen on a credit card than the bank. I bought my dh an iPad for his eightieth birthday and he is slowly getting into it. Due to circumstances I was forced to set up online banking which really worried us but the fact that it can be viewed as often as we wish and we are connected by phone if anything unusual happens has helped to allay these fears. The butcher still takes cash, as does the local chemist etc. Perhaps your parents can use a contactless credit card with a limited amount on it. Old habits die hard and the less we understand the more we fear. I have been gradually taking it on board and enjoy it tremendously. I have a Mac but an iPad is the easiest entrance to this new world of technology.

HappydaysArehere

Good point about using a credit card, much less disruptive if your account is compromised for any reason

Particularly useful when teaching children and teens the value of money. Doing it on a card doesn't feel the same.

Fully agree. Our son has never used cash. At secondary school, they had a finger print system for paying for lunches. He has had a Santander children's bank account since he was at primary school that came with a cash card - he paid birthday money into it and used it to pay for Xbox downloads etc. We got him a Monzo card for his daily bus tickets, snacks in town, etc. He's accustomed to checking his spending/balance via apps on his phone. He'd tell us when he needed a top up for school lunches. He transfers money from his Santander account to his Monzo account when needed. The monzo app in particular is brilliant to help him budget and track his spending.

Sorry, I meant disagree!

Hate using cash. Its fiddly, dirty, and you have to constantly get mote out of an atm. Contactless all the way imo.

Yes cashless society is great until your bank fucks up and then what?

You have more than one bank account and carry a couple of different cards.

Even back in the 80s' when I got my first credit card, it was an Access card, I also got one from a different bank that used the alternative Visa system. Even now, I always carry 2, one a Visa, the other a Mastercard. It's insurance for if one network is down.

Same with cash cards. I carry a card for my main bank, Santander, but also have "top up" accounts with Monzo and Halifax. I have my Monzo card in my mobile phone sleeve and the Halifax card in my purse. Covers all bases.

If you only have one account with one bank, you're already vulnerable for lots of reasons, i.e. should the entire bank's systems shut down or should they close your bank account "for security reasons" etc.

Having a bit of insurance is a no brainer surely?

@DieselEugene

Cash is useful if you are planning to leave your abusive husband. Easier to hide it and save it up. Payments can’t be traced.

Excellent point - a lot of people seem to lose sight of the fact that there may be legitimate reasons to want to keep their finances private, they just trot out the old "tax dodgers" line without thinking about it properly.

I am closing my business. The government and large corporations have a straightforward policy of destroying small business, and they are using HMRC to help them. They want all the work to be done by large corporations and outsourcers. I am trying to get a job, any job instead of running my own micro business - it's just too expensive and risky - which is exactly how the government wants it.

What "government do you mean?" I've been an accountant for 37 years. I've seen governments come and go. HMRC are no worse than they were 37 years ago, nor during the 13 Brown/blair years. In fact, I'd say there's far less chance of a tax enquiry these days than in the past. It used to be commonplace for small businesses to get a random VAT or PAYE inspection every few years. I can't actually remember the last random VAT/PAYE inspection for any of our clients - it must be more than 10 years ago. We've only had a couple of tax enquiries recently, both of which had a good reason (i.e. tax returns showed inconsistencies), both were dealt with quickly, neither with any tax due and minimal cost/inconvenience to the client.

@Badbadbunny

Yes cashless society is great until your bank fucks up and then what?

You have more than one bank account and carry a couple of different cards.

Even back in the 80s' when I got my first credit card, it was an Access card, I also got one from a different bank that used the alternative Visa system. Even now, I always carry 2, one a Visa, the other a Mastercard. It's insurance for if one network is down.

Same with cash cards. I carry a card for my main bank, Santander, but also have "top up" accounts with Monzo and Halifax. I have my Monzo card in my mobile phone sleeve and the Halifax card in my purse. Covers all bases.

If you only have one account with one bank, you're already vulnerable for lots of reasons, i.e. should the entire bank's systems shut down or should they close your bank account "for security reasons" etc.

Having a bit of insurance is a no brainer surely?

Exactly! I’ve got two current accounts both with about £100 in each in case I ever need to get hold of cash or my credit card doesn’t work, everything else goes in a savings account until it’s needed and all everyday spending is done on a credit card for the protection it provides.

Only once have I been in a cafe when their card machine wasn’t working so I had to nip down the street to get cash out to pay, it wasn’t a huge inconvenience and if I hadn’t been able to do that I could’ve still done a BACS transfer to them on my phone to pay so it wouldn’t have been the end of the world.

I've not used cash since before lockdown - anywhere. Everywhere says cards only. I stupidly took out £40 from a cashpoint around March 20th and it's been in my purse ever since.

And then my mother insisted on paying me back for something in cash, so now I've got even more! I really don't know what I am going to do with it, unless I use a self-serve till in Sainsburys (assuming they've not been converted to card only like the M&S and Waitrose ones).

Removing the contactless option from a card isn't that inconvenient, it just means you have to use the pin pad and use your PIN every time, rather than every 5 transactions.

Slightly off the point, but I realised yesterday that I am in danger of forgetting my pin number, since the Contactless limit has been raised to £45. I have made no purchases larger than that face-to-face since lockdown so have not needed my pin. I had to spend a few anxious minutes dragging it up from my memory. Anyone else find that

No because I've had to put mine in every 5 transactions. But my mum said exactly the same as you. I would say it depends on the bank, but my mum and I both use Nationwide.

And you can’t always do contactless as every so often you have to chip and pin

This.....I can’t understand why Ops parents were told they had to use contactless only. Whilst it’s preferable, C&P must also be available for anyone who has their card stopped after a number of contactless transactions, which is normal practice.

This has happened to me twice recently, once for Café food already prepared, as I rarely spend over £45 apart from petrol, so have solely used contactless during lockdown.

My DS in retail, and the cafe owner, both said they are having more contactless transactions stopped during lockdown.

We had an Indian takeaway on Sat, and unusually it was cash only.

We have always primarily used cards, but more so in lockdown and I struggled recently to pull enough £1 coins together to wash a duvet at laundrette!!!

Interestingly my young adult DC never carry cash, they do use cards but also have Apple Pay on phones that barely ever leave their hands!!