To think that we are being forced into a cashless society?

[rockingthelook]

My parents really don't like to use debit cards, especially the contactless ones, however , due to C19 this seems to be the way forward? They like to take their money from the bank and use the cash rather than cards, really don't want to bank or pay for anything online because they don't trust it, but everything seems to be geared towards contactless. They had a walk today and wanted to buy a cup of tea from a takeaway cafe and couldn't, not only because the place wouldn't take cash, but the cards had to be contactless, and their cards aren't (they asked not to have this feature as frightened of them being stolen and used) It seems to be that the banks etc are using the C19 situation to force things through, my mum was even told by the cashier in the bank the other day to use the cash machine in the bank rather than get the cash over the counter because of the 'risks', fgs it's THEIR money, can't believe Age Concern/UK aren't all over this!

@Badbadbunny

I am closing my business. The government and large corporations have a straightforward policy of destroying small business, and they are using HMRC to help them. They want all the work to be done by large corporations and outsourcers. I am trying to get a job, any job instead of running my own micro business - it's just too expensive and risky - which is exactly how the government wants it.

What "government do you mean?" I've been an accountant for 37 years. I've seen governments come and go. HMRC are no worse than they were 37 years ago, nor during the 13 Brown/blair years. In fact, I'd say there's far less chance of a tax enquiry these days than in the past. It used to be commonplace for small businesses to get a random VAT or PAYE inspection every few years. I can't actually remember the last random VAT/PAYE inspection for any of our clients - it must be more than 10 years ago. We've only had a couple of tax enquiries recently, both of which had a good reason (i.e. tax returns showed inconsistencies), both were dealt with quickly, neither with any tax due and minimal cost/inconvenience to the client.

That's not the only issue - the recent IR35 changes have destroyed my customer base. They have all reacted by refusing to engage with businesses like mine. I'm not asking for sympathy - I can see the writing on the wall. This government doesn't like or want one person limited companies - the lobbyists in the big consultancy and outsourcing firms have persuaded HRMC they are "losing" money - well they are certainly losing mine - no more corporation tax, VAT (often not reclaimable for my customers) from me and quite a few former similar operators, so due to their changes they will see less tax, not more.

I have a JL credit card which I use for most purchases and I rarely have to put in a pin, I do shop at the same places a lot though and most of the transactions are at Waitrose, definitely not only 5 transactions. I used to pop into Waitrose nearly every day before lockdown as I worked nearby and never seemed to be asked to put a pin in.

I prefer the option of cash but use both

Remember if you cancel cash you can be surveilled to follow every transaction and it is quite sinister

My Dad is 90 and is managing fine with a card. He was always a cash person till Covid but said to me the other day using contactless is much easier. Which it is, and safer.

My MIL is the same. She used to do weird convulated things with cash. She'd go to one bank, withdraw huge amounts of cash, and walk round to deposit some in other banks, then take most home. She'd then write cheques, from different bank accounts, for different bills. She'd use the cash to buy her shopping etc. Heaven knows why she did what she did - I think it was just because "she'd always done it that way". She shielded due to covid so she couldn't do any of that. It was an ideal opportunity for OH to look at her finances, try to understand what/why she was doing. He found piles of bank notes in random envelopes, drawers, boxes, etc - even MIL couldn't explain why - she'd forgotten most of her "hiding places". He rationalised it all, set up direct debits and standing orders, closed several accounts and opened up a couple of new ones. Now she has a "cash card" for supermarket spending, etc. It's fed by a monthly standing order from her new "main" account which is where the majority of her money sits - pensions paid in, utility direct debits paid out, earning interest at market rates so no need for separate savings accounts. Unbelievably simple - she still gets a monthly bank statement from the main account so she can see in one place how her money comes and goes and can see the monthly interest so she's happy.

That's not the only issue - the recent IR35 changes have destroyed my customer base. They have all reacted by refusing to engage with businesses like mine.

I agree, I'm an IR35 specialist and have been for 20 years since it was introduced by Brown. But this thread is about cash and strayed into tax enquiries. So, IR35 issues are off topic.

Cash being legal tender doesn’t mean businesses have to take it.

That's true - but customers also have a choice, and if they want to use cash and a business won't take it then they go elsewhere, and once they've gone they won't go back.

I like to give my grandsons spending money. They love to get a £10 note each now and again. Also popping money in their birthday cards, the oldest one gets money in all his cards now. Things like that will become a thing of the past. Sad really.

I've a fair bit of sympathy with the privacy and security concerns, but it isn't immediately obvious why your parents are entitled to have these prioritised over the welfare of retail workers during a pandemic. Especially for non-essential purchases: would more see your point if it were eg Tesco.

Having g just moved back from Belgium, cash is used quite a bit. Lots of places, like the bakeries, have a device on the counter that you feed coins or notes into for your purchase, and it spits the change out for you. No-one, except the customer, touches the cash. These first appeared a couple of years ago.

I don't have a contactless debit card, but that hasn't been an issue, as most of my purchases have been in excess of the contactless limit, and those that haven't been, are at the village shop, which is cash only anyway, or online.

Those devices sound like a good idea. Do you have to press buttons?

Zombie Nope, you just put coins in, or feed in a note, and the machine gives change, or not, if it's the correct money.

Nifty!

Banks probably want contactless because the money stays with them as long as possible. Businesses may be on the fence given the charges made to them, hence some small shops having a minimum spend. Government may not want to track your spend other than to stop cash being used for tax dodging purposes, though given Dominic Cummings' love of data, I am not so confident.

My main concern is that if the cash option goes, bank charges either to customers or businesses can increase more easily, because in a way there is less competition.

If you Google Gunnebo cash management closed systems, you'll see the machines. They are really good. I thought they were odd when I first saw them, but they work well.

I don't think cash will go altogether as having it gives a country increased resilience. Even Sweden is keeping cash, as they realised in case of a cyber attack and payment systems going down, you can still buy with cash.

How will we pay the window cleaner, roofer, plumber etc, by bank transfer? It’s ridiculous, we need cash for all sorts of things.

Apart from the fact that a very large number of people in the UK don't have been accounts which I flagged earlier but didn't see any responses to

This gives an awful lot of power to the banks which I'm also not sure is a great idea

@lovelifehope

How will we pay the window cleaner, roofer, plumber etc, by bank transfer? It’s ridiculous, we need cash for all sorts of things.

Err yea by bank transfer. Window cleaners and plumbers are allowed bank accounts, you know. Out of interest, if you had a plumber install an new bathroom for you, would you pay them in wads of £50 notes? Very strange post.

@ShinyFootball

Apart from the fact that a very large number of people in the UK don't have been accounts which I flagged earlier but didn't see any responses to

This gives an awful lot of power to the banks which I'm also not sure is a great idea

So you think they are doing just fine by not having a bank account. Perpetuating their exclusion from an active economy is not exactly a good thing. And banks won’t become more powerful off the back of a few marginalised people needing to get bank accounts. Also, a lever number of people drive diesel cars, doesn’t mean they won’t be phased out in the coming years.

@lovelifehope

How will we pay the window cleaner, roofer, plumber etc, by bank transfer? It’s ridiculous, we need cash for all sorts of things.

Why on earth are you paying a plumber or roofer in cash (other than tax fraud)?! We pay all of those things by bank transfer and I don't understand why anyone would find that surprising? Paying the window cleaner and cleaner by bank transfer is loads more convenient than remembering to get cash for them and then leaving it somewhere for them if we'll be out (particularly annoying for the window cleaner as it meant hiding it in the garden).

I go to a small farm shop which takes cash but has a contact less system. After I use this my card is declined on contactles and I have to use the pin. I've used pin more often due to the no of small purchases

I used to have to keep smaller notes for a business, and then another member of staff did it. One of the directors came and asked me why we had been charged so much in bank charges. They charged £2 per hundred for cash handling. If you think about the time it takes to physically check cash as well as insure it you can see why shops prefer card and are also happy to do cash back.

It's not really something that young people use though is it. We might need to think differently about how we teach budgeting.

I'm having this problem with an elderly friend. He o my has a pass book account so money has to be taken out in person. He was admitted to a nursing home, at the very start of lock down, so can't go out and pay his bills. He's in rent arrears because he can't get out. And I'm not willing to keep paying his bills I. My credit card. (As it's a trip into the back to get the money out). I tried opening an online account but was t able too.

Sst no they aren't doing just fine.

I posted a link upthread which explains that they are already penalised in many ways.

Extract from that link

'The 1.2 million so-called unbanked individuals are said to pay a “banking poverty premium” because they are missing out on preferential deals and discounts on utility bills, mobile phone contracts, broadband and personal loans.'

1.2 million people (in 2019) is not 'a few'.

What's your angle here?

And of course having every single financial transaction in the UK being processed by the banks will give them a huge amount of power. The entire economy will be even more dependent on them than it is now.

How will we pay the window cleaner, roofer, plumber etc, by bank transfer? It’s ridiculous, we need cash for all sorts of things.

Our window cleaner and milkman take card payments. They have a little card reader attached via bluetooth to their mobile phone.