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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To mask or not to mask

431 replies

coffeewithmilk · 11/07/2020 15:06

This thread might have some divided opinions

I have been wearing a face covering whenever I go into a shop or enclosed space where I cannot social distance - for example: went to IKEA this morning and put my mask on. I'm really shocked at the amount of people not wearing one.
I would have thought with everything that has happened the last few months that people would be inclined to wear a mask, but it's almost like nothing has happened... and feel like I even get some strange looks when I am wearing one.

Just for context: I'm not in the UK. Currently in ROI.

Do people think they are superior and won't catch anything so they don't bother putting one on?

AIBU with this?

OP posts:
multivac · 11/07/2020 18:28

Where's the actual scientific evidence that forcing an entire population to wear masks will have any positive effect

HTH

multivac · 11/07/2020 18:31

(or is that the wrong sort of science?)

ChewChewIsMySpiritAnimal · 11/07/2020 18:33

I'm not a keyboard bully, don't be silly now. You're the one who accused those not wearing masks of feeling like they're superior to everyone else.

Dominicgoings · 11/07/2020 18:35

Yes I wear one.
The excuses people make for not wearing one are tedious. So many people I know are ‘embarrassed’ I’d prefer embarrassment to ventilation to be honest.
I hope masks are made mandatory ASAP.

SengaStrawberry · 11/07/2020 18:35

They are compulsory in Scotland now in shops. I’ve been wearing them a few weeks to get used to them. Mine are cheap crap off amazon and they feel fine so makes me wonder if they’re doing any good. I hate the waste and have ordered cloth ones too just waiting for them to be delivered.

Dominicgoings · 11/07/2020 18:36

‘Doing more harm than good?’
Care to elaborate on the science behind that?

BatShite · 11/07/2020 18:38

Loads wear them here.

I had to wear one for 30 mins the other day in the doctors. I swear I almost passed out as I could not breathe properly. I do have asthma though, but doctors reckoned that makes no difference and I should still wear one. I will be staying in the house completely for the near future, as it was horrendous tbh.

PestymcPestFace · 11/07/2020 18:38

Where's the actual scientific evidence that forcing an entire population to wear masks will have any positive effect, and that the effects on coronavirus will outweigh effects on other respiratory or mental health conditions?

I'd start with @trishgreenhalgh on Twitter and then move onto Google Scholar if I were you and didn't wish to remain uninformed.

Sparklesocks · 11/07/2020 18:39

I wear them inside (shops, hairdresser etc) but not walking down the street. I prefer to wear one.

HoldMyLobster · 11/07/2020 18:39

Ok that doesn't answer where is the scientific evidence that masks help?

From the University of California SF

www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

As states reopen from stay-at-home orders, many, including California, are now requiring people to wear face coverings in most public spaces to reduce the spread of COVID-19.

Both the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the World Health Organization now recommend cloth masks for the general public, but earlier in the pandemic, both organizations recommended just the opposite. These shifting guidelines may have sowed confusion among the public about the utility of masks.

But health experts say the evidence is clear that masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19 and that the more people wearing masks, the better.

We talked to UC San Francisco epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

Why did the CDC change its guidance on wearing masks?

The original CDC guidance partly was based on what was thought to be low disease prevalence earlier in the pandemic, said Chin-Hong.

“So, of course, you’re preaching that the juice isn’t really worth the squeeze to have the whole population wear masks in the beginning – but that was really a reflection of not having enough testing, anyway,” he said. “We were getting a false sense of security.”

Rutherford was more blunt. The legitimate concern that the limited supply of surgical masks and N95 respirators should be saved for health care workers should not have prevented more nuanced messaging about the benefits of masking. “We should have told people to wear cloth masks right off the bat,” he said.

Another factor “is that culturally, the U.S. wasn’t really prepared to wear masks,” unlike some countries in Asia where the practice is more common, said Chin-Hong. Even now, some Americans are choosing to ignore CDC guidance and local mandates on masks, a hesitation that Chin-Hong says is “foolhardy.”

What may have finally convinced the CDC to change its guidance in favor of masks were rising disease prevalence and a clearer understanding that both pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic transmission are possible – even common. Studies have found that viral load peaks in the days before symptoms begin and that speaking is enough to expel virus-carrying droplets.

“I think the biggest thing with COVID now that shapes all of this guidance on masks is that we can’t tell who’s infected,” said Chin-Hong. “You can’t look in a crowd and say, oh, that person should wear mask. There’s a lot of asymptomatic infection, so everybody has to wear a mask.”

What evidence do we have that wearing a mask is effective in preventing COVID-19?

There are several strands of evidence supporting the efficacy of masks.

One category of evidence comes from laboratory studies of respiratory droplets and the ability of various masks to block them. An experiment using high-speed video found that hundreds of droplets ranging from 20 to 500 micrometers were generated when saying a simple phrase, but that nearly all these droplets were blocked when the mouth was covered by a damp washcloth. Another study of people who had influenza or the common cold found that wearing a surgical mask significantly reduced the amount of these respiratory viruses emitted in droplets and aerosols.

But the strongest evidence in favor of masks come from studies of real-world scenarios. “The most important thing are the epidemiologic data,” said Rutherford. Because it would be unethical to assign people to not wear a mask during a pandemic, the epidemiological evidence has come from so-called “experiments of nature.”

A recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.

Another study looked at coronavirus deaths across 198 countries and found that those with cultural norms or government policies favoring mask-wearing had lower death rates.

Two compelling case reports also suggest that masks can prevent transmission in high-risk scenarios, said Chin-Hong and Rutherford. In one case, a man flew from China to Toronto and subsequently tested positive for COVID-19. He had a dry cough and wore a mask on the flight, and all 25 people closest to him on the flight tested negative for COVID-19. In another case, in late May, two hair stylists in Missouri had close contact with 140 clients while sick with COVID-19. Everyone wore a mask and none of the clients tested positive.

Do masks protect the people wearing them or the people around them?

“I think there’s enough evidence to say that the best benefit is for people who have COVID-19 to protect them from giving COVID-19 to other people, but you’re still going to get a benefit from wearing a mask if you don’t have COVID-19,” said Chin-Hong.

Masks may be more effective as a “source control” because they can prevent larger expelled droplets from evaporating into smaller droplets that can travel farther.

Another factor to remember, noted Rutherford, is that you could still catch the virus through the membranes in your eyes, a risk that masking does not eliminate.

How many people need to wear masks to reduce community transmission?

“What you want is 100 percent of people to wear masks, but you’ll settle for 80 percent,” said Rutherford. In one simulation, researchers predicted that 80 percent of the population wearing masks would do more to reduce COVID-19 spread than a strict lockdown.

The latest forecast from the Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation suggests that 33,000 deaths could be avoided by October 1 if 95 percent of people wore masks in public.

Even if you live in a community where few people wear masks, you would still reduce your own chances of catching the virus by wearing one, said Chin-Hong and Rutherford.

Does the type of mask matter?

Studies have compared various mask materials, but for the general public, the most important consideration may be comfort. The best mask is one you can wear comfortably and consistently, said Chin-Hong. N95 respirators are only necessary in medical situations such as intubation. Surgical masks are generally more protective than cloth masks, and some people find them lighter and more comfortable to wear.

The bottom line is that any mask that covers the nose and mouth will be of benefit.

“The concept is risk reduction rather than absolute prevention,” said Chin-Hong. “You don’t throw up your hands if you think a mask is not 100 percent effective. That’s silly. Nobody’s taking a cholesterol medicine because they’re going to prevent a heart attack 100 percent of the time, but you’re reducing your risk substantially.”

If we’re practicing social distancing, do we still need to wear masks?
A mnemonic that Chin-Hong likes is the “Three W’s to ward off COVID-19:” wearing a mask, washing your hands, and watching your distance.

“But of the three, the most important thing is wearing a mask,” he said. Compared to wearing a mask, cleaning your iPhone or wiping down your groceries are “just distractors.” There’s little evidence that fomites (contaminated surfaces) are a major source of transmission, whereas there is a lot of evidence of transmission through inhaled droplets, said Chin-Hong.

“You should always wear masks and socially distance,” said Rutherford. “I would be hesitant to try to parse it apart. But, yes, I think mask wearing is more important.”

SchrodingersImmigrant · 11/07/2020 18:41

There has never been a chance to see use of masks in numbers like now. There will be lot of new and interesting info coming in after all of this.

m0therofdragons · 11/07/2020 18:42

Yes, I work in a hospital and when I go to the shops I wear a mask. There are very few conditions that prevent people wearing masks - surgeons and support staff wear them for hours on end and always have so I find the drama about not being able to breathe fairly pathetic. If I was pregnant I would definitely wear one. I don’t understand people’s reluctance. I take mine with me and if the shop feels busy I put it on.

PestymcPestFace · 11/07/2020 18:42

Asthma sufferers please get reputable advice.

If you’ve got asthma, you may or may not be able to wear a face mask or covering. It’s a good idea to try one out at home, or on a short walk around the block first. If it feels fine, then you can wear it, and it won’t harm you.
www.asthma.org.uk/advice/triggers/coronavirus-covid-19/what-should-people-with-asthma-do-now/#Facemask

Sparklesocks · 11/07/2020 18:43

Richard Osman compared it to people who refused to wear seatbelts in the 80s when it became compulsory. I thought that was an interesting comparison (excluding those with conditions unable to wear masks of course).

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 11/07/2020 18:46

Needs to be compulsory in shops/public transport

I do now at times I often forgot to

Wear one at work a lot of the time

Varenne · 11/07/2020 18:49

I wore one today at the supermarket for the first time (I've been doing online shops until today). I figured they'll probably be compulsory soon so I might as well buy some washable ones and get used to wearing them.

There were loads of people wearing masks, more than I've seen at any point. This didn't stop the check out assistant quite rudely pointing at me and saying "I don't know why you're bothering to wear that, I don't have to so why do you need to?". As she said this, a teenager standing at the next checkout along obviously heard and sheepishly took her mask off.

I'm not a mask evangelist but her attitude really pissed me off.

MaudesMum · 11/07/2020 18:51

As I wrote on another mask thread, the problem with making mask-wearing mandatory in shops is that it assumes we all queue to go into crowded supermarkets where social distancing isn't possible. I either shop in supermarkets late in the evening or go to small independent shops which have strict number controls (and the one member of staff behind a screen) or shop in open air markets. I can confidently say that I've never been within 2 metres of someone in a shop/supermarket for more than a couple of minutes since March. So, I'm not wearing a mask. I would of course wear one for medical appointments, and for when/if I go on public transport, and would probably wear one for the hairdressers but I'd really be resistant to wearing one in every bloody shop regardless.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 11/07/2020 18:53

@ ChewChewIsMySpiritAnimal and any other anti vaxxers, chain hard drugs taking bomb disposal types (jest!!)

Everything technically helps as it is not simply only wearing a now widely sold and available standard clinical face mask. It is even possible to make one yourself or repurpose a scarf or airline complementary eye sleep mask etc. Regular cheap clinical face masks are not guaranteed virus and bulletproof! But along with the mutual community benefit of wearing a face covering one should ideally also refrain from your home safety bubble as little as practicable ie the stay at home thing, wash/scrub hands properly and often, don’t touch high touch points things eg handles, lift buttons, groceries you may not purchase etc etc as much as Covid emergency practicable. All these small mitigation measures combined helps but sure if you are in a crowded beach or bar intoxicated etc etc or chain smoke still legally available tobacco then perhaps you may as well forget about the mask and just pay the fine when imposed and take a financial if not health hit. I am sure most of us who cannot or anti mask will not get Covid (unless you go into a Covid ICU etc).

The whole nonsense of whether masks are Covid useful or not is I believe initially touted by Boris (and Cummings and goings) because all the masks where being quickly acquired by overseas nations that appreciate their benefits both in and outside of a Covid hospital setting. Wearing a bog standard clinical face masks from Boots or other available pharmacies is a cheap and simple thing to do if not particularly initially comfortable as if wearing optical or sunglasses for the first time. A bit like grabbing and making sure your mobile phone is charged I also have a stack of new disposable clinical face masks individually wrapped ready to grab and go by my front hallway next to the keys as it’s compulsory for I and family and if nothing else sends a clear mutually respectful symbolic message that yes I am doing my bit and trying to move on out of lockdown and slowly find the new masked normal being as safe and sensible as possible keeping common sense still common.

Here is a video I posted about the actual science in case of doubt as found on another Covid mask thread recently:

Wear and do what you like (as long as it is legal) and if you know or see some poor souls impacted by this disease you may think again!

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 11/07/2020 18:55

Oh ok then masks are mandatory for all except MaudesMum

BeeBeep · 11/07/2020 18:57

Please stop assuming every person who isn't wearing one is simply not wanting to.

I think most of the judgement is to the posters just saying nah I don't want to. It's like vaccines, if those who can safely have them get them, it also helps keep those who cannot safer. Same with masks. If those who can safely wear one do (and not abstain just because they don't want to, usually because they're just so enlightened) then it means that those who cannot wear them are also less vulnerable. Therefore those who can but just won't are selfish.

PestymcPestFace · 11/07/2020 18:58

Washable, reusable,fabric face coverings are available on community mask trees.
Hopefully there is one near you communitymasktrees.org/find-a-local-mask-tree

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 11/07/2020 18:59

@coffeewithmilk I had the same experience yesterday in IKEA. DFriend and I both wearing facemasks all the time, 90% of other shoppers not wearing them or observing social distancing properly either. Grim.

bobbiester · 11/07/2020 19:01

A lot of "survivorship bias" here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

E.g. "we haven't been wearing masks and we're still ok"

If the 50,000 people in the UK killed by COVID-19 could post on the forum they might have rather different opinions.

coffeewithmilk · 11/07/2020 19:03

I completely understand with certain people not being able to wear them for medical/personal reasons as stated earlier in this post. But seeing groups of people together, for example today at IKEA, all from the same household, none of them wearing masks - surely they can't ALL have a valid reason not to wear one.

OP posts:
Clearyweary · 11/07/2020 19:08

I got slated on another post for saying that I thought masks should be mandatory for everyone. But I stick by my views, I think they should be mandatory for everyone in all indoor spaces. They will potentialy srop someone contracting a disease and dying - how can I be slated for suggesting that someone wears a mask so that someone ese doesnt die? 🤷‍♀️

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