Why is The North seen as backward and undesirable?

[Sibsmum]

Can't understand why The North, seems to get looked down on , except when someone wants a holiday home somewhere pretty, or a big house for cheaper prices.
There are Universities, theatres, good schools, roads that aren't clogged all the time( and some that are...)spectacular scenery... So why is there still a perception that somehow The North is 'less' everything than the South?

But we in the North look down on the South and see it as an undesirable place to live, with unfriendly people, comedy house prices, overcrowded transport systems and irritating accents.

No one is attacking you, I've asked you to think about how labelling colloquialisms in the way that you have contributes to this impression and suggested that being judgemental might be more of an issue than using a harmless (if unfamiliar) term.

I also suggested a long way back that the road to Wigan pier gives a great account of why the north and south are viewed so differently. Not only does Orwell discuss it directly but he creates a very vivid impression of the industrial north which a) influences the culture of some areas of Yorkshire (I can't speak for the other areas that he talks about) and b) some people seem to think is still factually accurate today.

Some of the UK's most scenic places are in the north - and I am a southerner.

I don't think it's seen as backwards op. I do think though that there are some unhelpful stereotypes that exist between both ends of the country. Equally, people in the north seem to think that anyone south of Leeds is a Londoner and view them as stuck up and snobby.

Some of the friendliest places I've visited are in the north. And some of the most genuine people I've met have been southerners (particularly west country). I do think pace of life varies across the country and this possibly impacts on perceptions - but it's a regional thing, as opposed to north/ south.

Yeh I read that thanks.

This thread isn't really about North vs South is it? It's North vs London.

Yes that's the way it always goes. ....perhaps that was why someone was being defensive about their exotic foodstuffs...

Ever heard the term “southern softy”? Is that not a prejudice that cuts the other way. You might think it’s a joke but “they” (In my case Mancunians) think they are a better and more sturdy stock than us wining southern softies! They have a huge chip on their shoulder about the south having better employment, London being the capital, us apparently having more money. Yet all I see when I go up is their disposable income is better than ours and they’re not paying through the nose for literally everything! Yes this is based on my own family and people they know but they’ve definitely got their ideas about southerners almost bred into them and it goes back generations. Yet when I go up to visit I see uncouthness, over friendly but not necessarily sincere people who are small minded and have a lacking of things like table manners. And if the northern towns are so bloody great then why are they all down south and in the West Country! You can’t get away from them!

@Destroyedpeople

I think it goes back way back to 'the harrying of the north'.

Let's be honest it's like a different country. When I was a teen I had this friend from Yorkshire and she came down to stay. She asked my brother if he and his gf 'were courting'....
We fell about laughing sorry. ...

So because one person from the north used a word it means everybody in the north uses it? And that makes it like a different country? Because one person used one word ? Can you not see how narrow minded that sounds? If she had been from Bristol would that make the whole of the south West was old fashioned or like a different country? If she had been from wherever you live would that have made you old fashioned or from a different country? No, it means that one person once used a word that was a bit different, or old fashioned, because that one person likes that word, regardless of where she’s from. But you chose to use that one word, from one person to stereotype the whole of the north as old fashioned and like a different country. Madness.

I am afraid it's true that I have taken loads more insults off northerners than I would dream of dishing out.....
But that doesn't fit with this ridiculous narrative of 'rude unfriendly southerner (londoner)' and 'wonderful down to earth super friendly northerners'.
Not my experience.

Oh for goodness sake. Are you still on about 'courting'.
Yes there is a massive north south divide and yes sometimes it does seem like a different country. Don't get hung up on one anecdote fgs.

@Destroyedpeople

I am afraid it's true that I have taken loads more insults off northerners than I would dream of dishing out..... But that doesn't fit with this ridiculous narrative of 'rude unfriendly southerner (londoner)' and 'wonderful down to earth super friendly northerners'. Not my experience.

Exactly this! I love my family but because I was born in the south they treat me differently! I don’t even think they really think about it or realise they are doing it but it’s so noticeable what they think of southerners. There are shitty southerners - I’m the first to admit that. There are shitty people wherever you go!

I’ve lived in Yorkshire all my life. I’m very happy here. Some of my family are very happy in London. I have never heard anyone with a chip on their shoulder about southerners, never heard that southerners have more money etc. Maybe because we are capable of seeing that whilst London in particular might give better wages, it also costs a hell of a lot more to live there.
The only time I see this is on here, where many pp come on and stereotype half the country ( if we’re going north and south with nothing in between) from having met one or two people from the “other side“ instead of having the intelligence to see that everybody is an individual and their views do not represent every other person who happens to live in the same 200 mile radius of them.

@Destroyedpeople

Oh for goodness sake. Are you still on about 'courting'. Yes there is a massive north south divide and yes sometimes it does seem like a different country. Don't get hung up on one anecdote fgs.

But according to you that antidote shows this massive north south divide you keep talking about.

Can anyone actually explain what this massive north south divide consists of other than anecdotes about they all speak funny or all have a chip on their shoulder etc. What is the actual divide?

I don’t think anyone thinks Northern areas are “backward.” I do think some Northerners choose to have a chip on their shoulder about “they think we’re thick,” or “I’m from Burnley and I call a spade a spade, me.” This kind of thing can do your head on.

I once lived with two girls from Burnley in a house share in Brixton. They made such an issue out of their “Northerness” it did them no favours tbh. Things like, making a fuss in about a panini in a cafe and going on and on about it being a sandwich, not panini. They had this chip that their accent made them sound thick - well, I said nothing, but they were the ones droning in about it. Apparently I was being a snob because I wasn’t into beer and pubs and used to mix “fancy” cocktails (ie gin with whatever I had in).

One day they were trying to make a hoo haa about me ordering skimmed milk - apparently this was “posh.” . I just had to tell them that the half of the neighbours were from Somalia or Columbia or god knows where, and they have come across continents, yet manage to survive with sandwiches etc going under many guises and they aren’t even fluent in English but they just get on with it - so get over yourselves basically.

@moj1to that’s just an anecdote about two people you know, that’s not representative of the entire north. The vast majority of northerners know what a panini is, don’t give a toss what milk you drink (I buy skimmed and I’m in the North!) and many like gin (as the shelf after shelf of craft gins in the supermarkets lay testament to). I could tell you a similar anecdote about how I went to uni with a girl from Essex and she used to go on and on about how she wasn’t common, didn’t sleep about and didn’t dress like a slag even though no one even said she did. She had a chip on her shoulder just the same however I’m not going to make a sweeping judgement on southerners based on one girl I knew 20 years ago. Lots of people have chips on their shoulders for lots of reasons, whether northern or southern.

This thread was nicer when it was about gravy, gherkins and parmos.

The North is lovely - but London (& poor infrastucture) pulls all the wealth south

I don't think I have heard the word " Courting" since my Grandma was alive ,she's been dead nearly 20 years and would have been 108 f she was still alive ,it is an old fashioned word but it's certainly not in common use in my part of the North West

Yes let's talk about gravy and chips it was way more fun.
I am also fascinated by Northern place names. Fir example in Cumbria you have the 'old language' evident in place names like Penrith....
Are there other areas of 'the North' with 'old language' place names?

@Milssofadoesntreallyfit

I think the only thing that bothers me is when the north is mentioned its often Manchester, Yorkshire. I'm from the north, in fact a good 2 hours further north in fact and still in England, I know people further North again and yes still in England. By some peoples description of north being in Newcastle or Morpeth or Berwick we must be actually Scottish!!!!

Thats a very ego centric view of geography there. You live in the North so anything south of you is the South? Yes you're in the North but so is Manchester. In theory 1/3 of England is in the North

and many like gin (as the shelf after shelf of craft gins in the supermarkets lay testament to)

I'm looking forward to trying the gin I bought from the York gin shop in January

I moved from south to north and the north is depressing.
Highest pregnancy rates.

Did you mean to put teen pregnancy? Because highest pregnancy rates on it's own doesn't sound bad to me..? Maybe I'm being dim because I'm Northern

Anyway, I've always thought it was all just a bit of a laugh. I married a Southerner and we take the piss out of each other all the time. Same goes for my Southern friends.

People who actually take the "divide" seriously need to get a life.

Yep I also like Gin ,and know what a pannini is and have even eaten them I don't buy skimmed milk as I detest all milk but that's just a personal choice ,and appreciate many people do buy skimmed milk ,and I don't live to far from Burnley

@Destroyedpeople

Yes let's talk about gravy and chips it was way more fun. I am also fascinated by Northern place names. Fir example in Cumbria you have the 'old language' evident in place names like Penrith.... Are there other areas of 'the North' with 'old language' place names?

You wNt to sign my petition? Petition. Com/GiveTheSouthernersGravyOnTheirChips

I think it's too early to go for cheese, it might blow their mind. I wouldn't advise dunking the gherkin though (jesus that sounds like a euphemism for celibacy 😂😂🥒)

@destroyedpeople A lot of places in the North have ‘le’ names

Poulton Le Fylde
Houghton Le Spring
Chapel En Le Fritt
Chester Le Street

I could be here a while .....

Yes I realise it’s just an anecdote and anecdotes work both ways, but this is how stupid stereotypes get perpetrated. It’s what I call “professional northerners,” but yes, you could just as easily have “professional Essexers,” or whatever. These are people that seem intent on drawing attention to the stereotypes if their region, even if nobody else is interested..

Loads of “Londoners” come from “the North” anyway did they are quite aware of what it’s like to live in places in the north - or Wales or Scotland or pretty much most places in the world tbh. If I think about this area of London I’ve lived in for the last 18 years, I can literally think of one woman only who was actually born here. Our kids were born here, but none of us were. And no, “Londoners” are far from envious that you can get cheaper housing up north - they’re thanking their lucky stars that their houses have tripled in value since 2000 because it will obviously give them more options in retirement.