To think that capitalism is shit?

[malificent7]

Just reading about the clothing sweat shops in Leister where sewing machinists are paid as little as 4.50 an hour and packers £3 an hour. Meanwhile the owner of Boohoo is a billionaire. Plus fast fashion is highly polluting.
This is just one industry. How come so many of us are willing to work for rich capitaliats while we scrape by?
Capitalism is shit isn't it?

@Hopeforall

This isn’t what communism is anymore than the some of the definitions of capitalism that are being thrown around.

LemonTT what is communism?

Socialism succinctly is a movement that strives to transfer the means of production, distribution and consumption into the hands of the people.

Communism is the end result and many of the historical examples of this are forms of communism based on the theories of Marx. He advocated that communism could be achieved by any means possible. That includes violence and seizure of assets.

Sweden is supposedly socialist....not that I care aboiut the labels.

It's obvious you don't care about labels, as Sweden is definetly not socialist, this has been rebuked by every Nordic countries PM since 'luxury socialists' try and hold it up as a beacon for us all to follow.

Anyone advocating Socialism generally has very little understanding of politics whether that is geo, national or even local, very limited understanding of economics and even more telling don't see themselves having to work in the factories or fields.

Socialism has become a day dream for those who only get there opinions from twitter and news headlines.

This - I had a acquaintance from a former Iron curtain country. He had travelled to Western Europe quite a bit.
He preferred the cultural experiences (theatre etc) he could get at home to fancy cars/cameras/clothes etc.
Even now, it is much more affordable relatively speaking to go to the opera or the ballet in an ex-communist country than in the UK, where the cheapest ticket for the opera is the equivalent of a day's salary for someone on minimum wage. But it's OK, poor people don't need the opera.

The whole point of communism is to remove proprietary rights from individuals without which individuals can’t be free because they don’t have the means to act on their decisions or the ability to acquire those means.

LemonTT surely then what this pp wrote above sounds pretty much like communism?

@Muminabun

Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else it is our best tool to Lift people out of poverty and create opportunity and support public services. It is a great leveller. Socialism has never worked and has devastated countries. In practice it is a disaster. Capitalism is not perfect and leads to unequal wealth whereas socialism leads to mass poverty. For those who long for socialism feel free to move to a socialist country....thought not. Refugees and migrants flee to capitalist countries, there is no flow in the opposite direction. Why?

Totally 100% agree

I think we need to look beyond this false binary of capitalism vs communism. There are clearly issues with our current economic model. Some use the term extractive capitalism.

Massively unequal wealth actually.
Look at the US, land of the so-called free, but only for some, not exactly an endorsement!

Seen recently in a discussion on capitalism ...

@firstmentat, well where I come from (a country which is not and has never been communist), we were expected as children to work next to our parents any time we were not at school, eg evenings, weekends and summer holidays. Most of my classmates did not look forward to the summer holidays because it meant hard work in all weathers. I guess our experiences are a result of poverty, not a specific political system. Anyway, I have to go back to work now, this thread is too addictive. All the best to you!

It's greed what's shit. And if you think there is no greed outside capitalism... Well you are in for a surprise.

You yourself can be the change by not being greedy and paying proper prices for stuff.

The Scandinavian model of democratic socialism produces great outcomes in terms of reducing inequality, increasing social mobility and guaranteeing a universal standard of education and healthcare. The US is an example of a society where capitalism has been allowed to run rampant, resulting in poverty and huge societal issues relating to inequality. I am not against capitalism but there needs to be checks and balances in place to protect the vulnerable and guarantee fair access to education, housing and healthcare. The UK is becoming more and more unequal and to me, this is a travesty. But these are my values, and not everyone agrees - unfettered capitalism will always be in the interests of the wealthy, and it is the wealthy who largely control our political system.

@BigGee

They're not teaching critical thinking skills in schools any more,are they?

Evidently not.

How do you make the leap from one business breaking to law to capitalism is shit?

Exactly this. You can't blame capitalism when the real problem is that the regulatory authorities are asleep on the job!

Socialism succinctly is a movement that strives to transfer the means of production, distribution and consumption into the hands of the people.

Well that is democratic socialism, not all socialism and it’s not transferred into the hands of the people, but the State. The State, of course, claims in socialist countries to be “by the people for the people” but that’s just words. The powerful always always hold on to the wealth and privilege. It’s just allocated out by your rank in the ruling Party.

Even now, it is much more affordable relatively speaking to go to the opera or the ballet in an ex-communist country than in the UK, where the cheapest ticket for the opera is the equivalent of a day's salary for someone on minimum wage. But it's OK, poor people don't need the opera.

How much do you think it costs to stage an opera? To maintain the (often old and crumbling) building and insure it, to pay for the utilities, to pay the performers, the musicians, the stage hands, the technical crew, the set designers, the wardrobe staff, and the actual materials required for set building and costumes, the front of house staff, the cleaners, and anyone else I've forgotten.

@DGRossetti

Seen recently in a discussion on capitalism ...

Nice cartoon. But fact is very human society ever in existence no matter whether capitalist or not has a hierarchy pyramid. This no one has ever come up with a solution. The way to judge progress against flattening society’s hierarchy is to look at how steep is the pyramid? As in how much more income do the people at the top get compared to the people at the bottom. This is actually tracked world wide. if you look at the GINI coefficient, which tracks income inequality, or how steep that pyramid is, you will find that capitalist countries have the flattest pyramids or lowest income inequality compared to noncapitalist countries. The US is not actually the most capitalist country on the planet. It too has a mix of socialism and it’s own welfare state.

Another interesting fact is that the most capitalist countries were best at responding to Covid in terms of protecting their people.
www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2020/04/15/rankings-capitalist-countries-have-the-highest-levels-of-covid-19-safety/

Another interesting fact is that the most capitalist countries were best at responding to Covid in terms of protecting their people.

Suggesting the UK is pisspoor at capitalism then.

Also doesn't say much for the US (most of whose citizens are firmly of the belief that not only did they invent capitalism, but they own it too ...)

@LetitiaMartin, probably it costs just as much in eastern European countries as in the UK, again relatively speaking. That was not the point of my comment or this thread

@NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite

Next, as a comparison, has a huge team of people designed to check for exactly these scenarios. They go worldwide checking standards in factories. Then why has it taken until yesterday for Next to drop Boohoo?

Their CSR disclosure states that they check their own suppliers' factories and their suppliers are legally obliged to do the same. Next is an aggregator, for aggregators to check the factories of its "hosted companies'" suppliers worldwide would be impossible. Each supplier should be responsible for auditing the factories supplying it, in this case, boohoo has failed.

But it's OK, poor people don't need the opera.

Actually they really don't. Why would they? I mean ... What. Obviously. You can't have everything. It's just so unnecessary.

@firstmentat

Everyone below 50 years old who grew up in the ex-soviet countries experienced communism as a child or a teenager, so their views of it are limited and heavily influenced by the views of their family. Well, it is true. I still remember the rich cultural experience of being left at the age of 4 or 5 to hold a place in a queue to buy milk for a couple of hours, with a queue number written on my hand by a kind lady in ink, as I kept forgetting it. Not because my parents were neglectful - they are the best anyone could wish for - but because one of them was queuing to buy bread in a different shop and the other one had to travel to a different city as there was a rumour that someone dodgy was selling children's shoes through the back door of the factory there. But at least there weren't any evil capitalists exploiting us.

Wonder if a capitalism hating, virtue signalling leftie has a come back for this. Surely not.

I’ve never bought anything on Boohoo.com as I’m not their target demographic, however, someone posted an image earlier in the thread with dresses selling for £4. I refuse to believe any NT person over the age of 10 would not think that was suspiciously cheap. If you are buying £4 dresses you are complicit in exploitation and abuse.

Boohoo.com knew what was going on a d have only acted because of outrage. The other companies who stocked their products such as Next also knew. They know more about garment costs than me and I know a £4 dress must be being produced by extremely desperate and vulnerable workers.

@bgmama

*This - I had a acquaintance from a former Iron curtain country. He had travelled to Western Europe quite a bit. He preferred the cultural experiences (theatre etc) he could get at home to fancy cars/cameras/clothes etc.* Even now, it is much more affordable relatively speaking to go to the opera or the ballet in an ex-communist country than in the UK, where the cheapest ticket for the opera is the equivalent of a day's salary for someone on minimum wage. But it's OK, poor people don't need the opera.

You’re right. Who needs food when you can have opera. Maybe that’s where capitalism is going wrong, not enough opera I tell you.

Capitalisms big problem is that it's predicated on growth. Perpetual growth. Stop growth, you stop capitalism.

When you run out of world to exploit, you've hit the buffers.

You can create artificial growth by having a war or two.

Personally I'm a believer in the idea that the Roman Empire collapsed because it hit the buffers and could no longer expand economically. Certainly the economy tanked towards the end.

Pure, unbridled capitalism does not work for everyone, but communism is as bad, or worse. Ultimately, human beings are competitive and some are immoral and they will take advantage where they can.

In addition, I don't think we have capitalism at the moment, where people are rewarded for risking capital. I think that we have something far closer to crony capitalism, where a cadre of managers (not risk takers) pay themselves absurdly large salaries and bonuses to do nothing very special and certainly not to take risk. Few resent the Dysons and Gates or this World. Many, however, do not feel that senior bankers, lawyers and consulants can pay themselves six and seven figure salaries whilst returning pitiful returns to their shareholders (who include most with a pension).

People do need to be rewarded for their effort and creativity. However, government does have a role in directing this and making it work in the long term, rather than just the short term. In addition, there should be a safety net for the vulnerable.