To think care home bosses should take some responsibility for Covid infections in homes

[JustAsking1837]

This is just in response to criticism over Boris Johnson's comments. Sorry if this has already been done but I've not found any threads on this surprisingly. I am no fan of Boris or the Government but day in day out I have listened to the press savagely criticise the Government no matter what it does or doesn't do and is blamed for everything. However everyone is in uproar when Boris has suggested that many care homes may have not done everything they should have to prevent infections. I am not necessarily saying they are to blame, as I don't know, but think it should be fair game for discussion.

Care homes are private businesses (largely). No-one expected the govt to provide Sainsbury's with PPE, so why would they provide PPE to a privately owned care home business?

JaJaDingDong because they were expecting them to take hospital discharges who may have been covid positive.

I don't see how that makes any difference. The NHS were paying them for that service. Care Homes are a business. If they couldn't take patients because they didn't have the right equipment, then they should have refused them, or done a deal with the NHS to provide what they needed.
A care home wouldn't, for example, take a patient who needed a hoist into care if they didn't have a hoist, or a patient who needed other specialist care if they didn't have a relevant specialist on the staff.

@JaJaDingDong do you really think that would be the case during a pandemic when everything was in action stations? (The answer is no). And care homes largely werent expecting the NHS to provide them with PPE, but similarly there was no thought over the market, prices rose by ridiculous amounts and made it unaffordable; they could have included them in an NHS mass order as a framework or under the umbrella of care settings.

Yes, they could have included them in a mass NHS order, but the care homes should still have to pay for their own PPE.

I just don't get it, sorry. If it was a supermarket chain, or the bank where I work, for example, where a lot of people had died, because able bodied people with the virus have been knowingly wandering around, would you still say it was the government's fault?

I’ve never heard a care home owner complaining about having to PAY for PPE.

I’ve heard constantly that they had difficulties OBTAINING it. That’s a totally different issue.

I witness an elderly hands on care home owner (former doctor) crying because all the companies he usually purchased from said his (5 bed) care home was too small for them to bother supplying and they’d decided to prioritise larger Chains and the NHS. When PPE is used correctly it runs out very fast. If no one will sell it you or it will take six weeks to arrive from China you are screwed.

Plus there were all the twats who mass bought, split up packs of 1000s (rendering them non-sterile) into packs of 3 or 5 and sold them on EBay/Marketplace etc to the general public.

The whole thing was a shambles.

Yes, they could have included them in a mass NHS order, but the care homes should still have to pay for their own PPE.

Yes, that's not what they were having an issue with. The issue was that a) they couldn't obtain any as the NHS was being prioritised, and b) the stuff that was available had ridiculous price hikes because demand was outstripping supply. As part of a government deal they could have had access to some for a reasonable price, but still paid for it. Supermarkets aren't comparable, and yes, there is additional responsibility as residents were discharged from NHS care without being tested.

The state pays for thousands of people in care homes. They might be private businesses but the state pays for lots of residents.

The problems we have faced are long term funding issues. Homes with largely self funding residents had fewer deaths. We need to understand that social care needs to be a collective responsibility. However those with lots of money, largely through home ownership, are made to pay but others who might have had a great life and don’t have a property or savings, get free care. It turns out this care may not be Covid proof but there needs to be a system where home owners don’t subsidise others. Everyone needs to insure via a government scheme or a similar scheme whereby wage earners contribute, not just home owners.

Anyone know what happens in Germany?

Lots of private hospitals in USA are starting to face PPE shortages. Hard to keep up when demand is very high.

The nhs didn’t provide for care home equipment. They are totally separate. No care home is run by the nhs. The nhs couldn’t get the equipment they needed. They were hardly going to get extra PPE or share it!

The one home I know of, didn't quarantine residents coming in from hospitals, but mixed with other residents from the get go. That didn't help.

The nhs didn’t provide for care home equipment. They are totally separate. No care home is run by the nhs. The nhs couldn’t get the equipment they needed. They were hardly going to get extra PPE or share it!

I know, they made it so it was near on impossible for care homes to get hold of any PPE, and then refused residents a hospital bed. Nice huh?

@JaJaDingDong

Normally, i would agree but successive Govt's have actively sought to privatise the care and nursing of the elderly, it is also heavily regulated by the state, we have outsourced care of the elderly.

A global pandemic required a comparable government response, One of which the Govt decided would be to empty the hospitals of the elderly in preparation of huge numbers of CV patients, they issued PHE guidelines that said CV wouldn't effect their patients or their staff, so why would they stockpile PPE ? they were told "no need"

When guidance did change, suppliers were instructed to only supply NHS trusts.

Even worse in private agencies, they received almost no PPE, masks rationed, Govt provided them with none and it hasn't changed.

When guidance did change, suppliers were instructed to only supply NHS trusts.

When did the guidance change?

18th March;

"We are clear that no wholesaler has been asked to prioritise NHS provision over the care sector nor should they be doing so."

nationalcareassociation.org.uk/news-events/news/ppe-for-the-care-sector

The Telegraph - 16th April;

“My wife works for the NHS as a physiotherapist as part of a falls team.They specialise in vulnerable OAPs and treat them out in the community in an effort to get them out of hospital quicker or keep them out of hospital."

“A lot of her patients are in care homes. She had to report one last week because they had not issued any staff with PPE. Apparently every care home got delivered a 'starter pack' of gear, but lots of them won’t use it because when it runs out they would have to buy it themselves and they won’t fund it.The manager admitted that they have it, but the company bosses have told them they don’t need it!"

“Private care homes will be the biggest scandal to come out of this – and there are a few to choose from!”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/16/have-no-proper-ppe-telegraph-readers-coronavirus-care-homes/

Why would care homes have got more PPE if they were still run by local authorities? What does it matter who runs them if the equipment wasn’t available to them and they still took Covid patients from hospitals. Local government run homes wouldn’t have fared better. In fact a lot of them were a disgrace. Plenty are now run by charities and are better for it. They couldn’t get PPE either. It simply wasn’t available.

Johnson has also lied about when they knew about symptom free people passing on the virus. That’s why they tried to ramp up testing. He’s a liar - always has been and always will be.

Cav
That advice stayed on PHE website until mid April, peak CV infection rates were thought to have happened well before then, the damage was already done.

By February, it was well known that CV affected the elderly the worst, so why on earth was the guidance ever issued?

Johnson should be put on trial for his handling of CV along with Trump and Bolsonaro, all 3 guilty of causing mass death.

Care ones have been treated horrendously. I’m almost inclined to think it was unspoken policy to reduce the burden of the frail elderly.
They were excluded from PPE commissioning. They had no access to supply pipeline.
Testing wasn’t made available.
Hospitals were pressured to discharge unwell people to homes.
Initially, the elderly were denied hospital access.
All were pressured to accept DNACPR even the young withe learning disability. Forms were signed through remote decisions and in groups, not as individual decisions as they should be.

It makes no sense for care homes not to care for their residents and prevent covid deaths.

The more residents each care home has the more profit they make, it is not in their interest to allow covid to spread around a home and kill their residents.

Lots of care homes ARE charities. They are not for profit organisations. It’s not all care homes that make a profit and it’s not wrong to run a business and make a profit if the business works well to everyone’s satisfaction. I don’t care what type of home they are, as long as they are good. There’s no evidence to say private ones had more problems than charitable ones. They all tried their best. If we want Rolls Royce care homes, we need to find Rolls Royce money.

Well said My0my, people only see the worst of care homes on tv or news.

jasjas1973
By February, it was well known that CV affected the elderly the worst, so why on earth was the guidance ever issued?

Sorry, what guidance are you referring to?
This?

25 Feb -
"This guidance is intended for the current position in the UK where there is currently no transmission of COVID-19 in the community. It is therefore very unlikely that anyone receiving care in a care home or the community will become infected.This is the latest information and will be updated shortly."

That advice stayed on PHE website until mid April, peak CV infection rates were thought to have happened well before then, the damage was already done.

I think the new guidance was issued on the 13th March, not mid April;

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-residential-care-supported-living-and-home-care-guidance

Clearly not mid-April.

13th March;

"To minimise the risk of transmission, care home providers are advised to review their visiting policy, by asking no one to visit who has suspected COVID-19 or is generally unwell, and by emphasising good hand hygiene for visitors. Contractors on site should be kept to a minimum."

"Where a resident is showing symptoms of COVID-19, steps should be taken to minimise the risk of transmission through safe working procedures. Staff should use personal protective equipment (PPE) for activities that bring them into close personal contact, such as washing and bathing, personal hygiene and contact with bodily fluids. Aprons, gloves and fluid repellent surgical masks should be used in these situations. If there is a risk of splashing, then eye protection will minimise risk."

"New PPE must be used for each episode of care."

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200316125115/www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-residential-care-supported-living-and-home-care-guidance/covid-19-guidance-on-residential-care-provision" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200316125115/www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-residential-care-supported-living-and-home-care-guidance/covid-19-guidance-on-residential-care-provision

@Clavinova as I said way up the post, we locked down way before Boris told everyone to do. Ment no relatives, other health professions, no nurse from the other site could come over. Any of us who showed symptoms had to self isolate, which ment the rest of us had to cover their shifs. No agency were allowed to come, no residents were to go to hospital unless they absolutely needed to do.

We have done everything, been given masks to wear when going to the supermarket or shops. All of us have been tested and all clear, now we will be tested every week. None of the residents have shown any signs of covid 19.

We are cleaning more now than ever, using dettol or milton to clean all surfaces.

Happiness is right

Even if you believe (and I don't) that care home bosses are evil capitalist pigs then even on a financial level it makes no sense for them to want residents to die. They do not want empty beds as this will jeopardise the margins apart from anything else.

Many of them are in big financial trouble now as there are so many empty beds and the fees will be driven down.

Financially they would want to do all they can to ensure residents are alive and paying fees. Saving the cost of a few pairs of gloves is not worth the loss of many thousands of pounds care fees. Saving money would not be the reason for lack of ppe it would be lack of availability.